Well being "neither or" I suppose you are a bit like the middle east weatherman...."It will be sunni in some areas and shi'ite in others".You give a little away by saying "blinkin" but heh i am learning but maybe you are european background?..I'm new here,your'e 5552 posts aren't..

Anyway mate would you say this article puts them now only 700 years behind the rest of society rather than the 800 we were getting used to perhaps?..a difficult one without a doubt...

Obviously neither of you have any idea of my attitude towards Islam, I do not glorify it, or any other system, as the root cause of all our problems invariably falls at the feet of human hubris and selfishness, which are human traits that are not constrained by any label, be that crazy muslim terrorist, or western imperialist.
What I took heart from in the article was that these supposedly unmovable clerics, have moved.
Whether the pressures that brought about that move emanated from internal reflection, or western pressure, the fact remains that they have made a positive change, and I see that as a ray of hope for a more understanding future.

I do not need to label the loonwatch site as pro-muslim, and then discard facts I find there as unreliable.
Just like I do not need to be pro muslim to understand the intelligence, and integrity of muslims like waleed Ali (sorry if I misspelled his last name) when they speak with honesty and provide insights and attitudes on many topics, which may not be immediately apparent to, or agreed upon, by all, but I certainly would never discount, or try and diminish the credibility he has earned, just because he is classified by some, as, pro-muslim.
Truth is truth, no matter who tells it.

Islam is intractable. People aren't. You only have to look at Abu and Falah, who were supposedly raised as mainstream 'european' Australians to see where Islam leads you. Did the clerics accept this? Were they coerced?

Note that according to Abu, Shites are apostates and should be stoned to death. Of course, the 'regular people' of Iran would be given a chance to repent and adopt the proper version of Islam, as they were obviously mislead (and Shites are allowed to lie a lot more about their religion). My point is that these apparent reforms can very easily be wiped out by mass slaughter from people like Abu.

falah wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 2:04pm:


Got a cite for these war crimes from amnesty falah?

Did they say hamas does war crimes as well or do you ignore negatibe talk about muslims?

Al shaabab recruit 15 year old boys as do many Islamic militant groups is this considered a war crime falah?

Israel used white phosphorus in Gaza civilian areas

The Israeli army used white phosphorus, a weapon with a highly incendiary effect, in densely populated civilian residential areas of Gaza City, according to indisputable evidence found an Amnesty International fact-finding team which reached the area last Saturday.

When white phosphorus lands on skin it burns deeply through muscle and into the bone, continuing to burn until deprived of oxygen.

Amnesty International’s delegates found still-burning white phosphorus wedges all around residential buildings on Sunday. These wedges were further endangering the residents and their property; streets and alleys are full of children playing, drawn to the detritus of war and often unaware of the danger.

The carrier shells which delivered the wedges were also still lying in and around houses and buildings. Some of these heavy steel 155mm shells have caused extensive damage to residential properties.

"Yesterday, we saw streets and alleyways littered with evidence of the use of white phosphorus, including still burning wedges and the remnants of the shells and canisters fired by the Israeli army," said Christopher Cobb-Smith, a weapons expert who is in Gaza as part of the four-person Amnesty International team.

"White phosphorus is a weapon intended to provide a smokescreen for troop movements on the battlefield," said Cobb-Smith. "It is highly incendiary, air burst and its spread effect is such that it that should never be used on civilian areas.”

Donatella Rovera, Amnesty’s researcher on Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories said that such extensive use of this weapon in Gaza's densely populated residential neighbourhoods is inherently indiscriminate. ," she said

When each 155mm artillery shell bursts, it deploys 116 wedges impregnated with white phosphorus which ignite on contact with oxygen and can scatter, depending on the height at which it is burst (and wind conditions), over an area at least the size of a football pitch. In addition to the indiscriminate effect of air-bursting such a weapon, firing such shells as artillery exacerbates the likelihood that civilians will be affected.

"Artillery is an area weapon; not good for pinpoint targeting. The fact that these munitions, which are usually used as ground burst, were fired as air bursts increases the likely size of the danger area,” said Chris Cobb-Smith.

Among the places worst affected by the use of white phosphorus was the UNRWA compound in Gaza City, at which Israeli forces fired three white phosphorus shells on 15 January. The white phosphorus landed next to some fuel trucks and caused a large fire which destroyed tons of humanitarian aid.

Prior to this strike, the compound had already been hit an hour earlier and the Israeli authorities had been informed by UNRWA officials and had given assurance that no further strikes would be launched on the compound.

In another incident on the same day a white phosphorus shell landed in the al-Quds hospital in Gaza City also causing a fire that forced hospital staff to evacuate the patients.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/israeli-armys-use-white-phosphor...

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 5:43pm:



Do little girls commit adultery Freediver? Is anybody stoning them? Is this just another non-issue you are using to inflame anti-Muslim sentiment?


In Islam, people are considered innocent until after they reach puberty.

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 5:43pm:


I have told you previously that it is only the Shia leadership in Iran which are considered apostates. The common Iranian person is not considered an apostate.

freediver wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 5:43pm:


Freediver, if you had bothered to read the page, you would see that I had ask Barren whether he considers Amnesty a reliable source of information considering he likes to quote it when it suits him.

Barren asked for citation for Amnesty accusations of Israeli war crimes, so I provided them.



Do you believe in the Bible Freediver?

Because it says a lot about stoning:


Exodus 19:12-3

Put limits for the people around the mountain and tell them, 'Be careful that you do not go up the mountain or touch the foot of it. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death.
He shall surely be stoned or shot with arrows...



Numbers 15: 32-36

While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day.
Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly,
and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.
Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.
So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses
"


Leviticus 20:2

"Say to the Israelites: 'Any Israelite or any alien living in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death. The people of the community are to stone him.



Leviticus 20:27

"'A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.'"



Leviticus 24:13-4

Then the LORD said to Moses:
"Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.




Deuteronomy 17:2-5

If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing evil in the eyes of the LORD your God in violation of his covenant, and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods, bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky, and this has been brought to your attention...take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death.




Deuteronomy 13:10

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death,



Deuteronomy 21:18

If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town...Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.




Deuteronomy 22:13-21

If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you.



Deuteronomy 22:22

If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die...




Deuteronomy 22:23-4

If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death--the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

falah wrote on May 1^st, 2012 at 6:07pm:


The shia follow the Quran it is only in the hadith where you have doctrinal differences.
The Quran is the words from allah told by Mohammad according to muslims yet the hadith has no divine origin it is man made.

You are the one who uses amnesty whenever it suits you, you did ignore my questions about war crimes done by muslims while using amnesty to condemn Israel.

The Palestinians have not ratified the geneva conventions or the Rome statute, we know Islamic countries did not ratify the universal declaration of human rights because human rights violate Islamic law so what are the chances of them ratifying treaties to allow them to prosecute for war crimes.
The hypocrisy from muslims in wanting to use these organisations to condemn their enemies yet not even ratifying the treaties because they contradict Islamic law.

Amnesty says firing rockets into Israel is a war crime yet hypocrites like Falah ignore this when trying to use Amnesty to condemn Israel for war crimes.

There is no amnesty presence in Palestine so does all their information come from Palestinian sources?

A search for Palestine on the Amnesty website shows the Palestinians are also guilty of war crimes, which muslims conveniently forget when using Amnesty to condemn Israel.

Amnesty on Palestine -
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/q-and-human-rights-implications-pales...