Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print
Do muslims even know what rape is? (Read 5330 times)
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 34870
At my desk.
Do muslims even know what rape is?
Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:06pm
 
Falah, does Islam permit you to rape your wife?

When you claim I am lying about this, do you really mean that you do not recognise non-consensual sex as rape wherever Islam considers it to be legal?

Do you understand that just because you think it should be legal, does not mean it isn't rape?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
falah
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3162
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #1 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:21pm
 
Quote:
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness...on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.
[The Noble Quran, an-Nissa, v.19]




Prophet Muhammed ordered men to treat their wives kindly:

Quote:
...act kindly towards women
[Saheeh al-Muslim]


Quote:
“And treat women with kindness, and treat women with kindness.”
[al-Bukhaari]



Quote:
The Prophet , said: “The best among you are those who are best to  their wives  and I am the best among you in treating my wives.”
[At-Tirmithi (Graded by Al-Albaani as authentic)]



Freediver, Islam stresses the importance of being kind to the wife. Do you consider rape to be kind treatment?
Back to top
« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:30pm by falah »  

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 34870
At my desk.
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #2 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:23pm
 
I am well aware of Muhammed's hypocrisy thanks Falah.

What is the Islamic punishment for raping your wife?

Is this even considered a crime under Islamic law?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 34870
At my desk.
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #3 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:46pm
 
Falah, should a Muslim husband have to obtain consent from his wife each time they have sex, or does the implied consent in marriage suffice?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
falah
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3162
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #4 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:23pm:
What is the Islamic punishment for raping your wife?

Is this even considered a crime under Islamic law?



Freediver, is there a punishment in the Bible for raping your wife?

Is there any religion which orders a punishment for raping your wife?

There was not even a punishment in Australia for raping your wife until fairly recently.

If there is no punishment, does than mean that it is considered to be acceptable?

Islam does not order a punishment for every single sin, transgression, or wrongdoing. There are some things which are left to God to decide guilt and punishment on the Day of Judgement.



However, Islamic law does allow punishment for those who physically injure others, and also allows women to obtain a divorce.
Back to top
 

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!
 
IP Logged
 
falah
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3162
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #5 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 2:46pm:
Falah, should a Muslim husband have to obtain consent from his wife each time they have sex, or does the implied consent in marriage suffice?


Can you define what you mean by consent?

If a wife does not object, do you consider that consent?

Or do you mean the Swedish definition where you almost need written permission from the woman (and a condom)?

Back to top
« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2012 at 3:01pm by falah »  

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!
 
IP Logged
 
Annie Anthrax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Take the plan, spin it
sideways

Posts: 7057
Gender: female
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #6 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 3:47pm
 
A woman in Islam has the right to refuse to have sex with her husband, but it's frowned upon. If she has the right to refuse, obviously raping her is not permissable.

Back to top
 

I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 34870
At my desk.
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #7 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 4:07pm
 
Quote:
A woman in Islam has the right to refuse to have sex with her husband, but it's frowned upon. If she has the right to refuse, obviously raping her is not permissable.


If raping her is not punished, does that mean it is legal and permissible?

It seems Falah was a bit more generous with the truth on this issue in the past:

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:16pm:
Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam.


Falah, is forced sex in marriage rape?

Here is an interesting opinion from Falah about the role of consent in marital sex:

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 7:57pm:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:52pm:
Okay.

Falah can you explain what you meant?


When you marry someone, you have a duty to care for them. This includes satisfying their sexual needs. Therefore, if you don't want to have sex with somebody, then you shouldn't marry them.


falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 9:39pm:
Quote:
When you marry someone, you have a duty to care for them. This includes satisfying their sexual needs. Therefore, if you don't want to have sex with somebody, then you shouldn't marry them.


What if you want to have sex with them occasionally, when both of you consent, rather than becoming their sex slave.


Isn't it selfish to deny your partner sex? Afterall sex doesn't cost you anything. [/quote]

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:52pm:
is that just western nonsense, like falling in love before you get married?


You mean try before you buy? Yes that is nonsense, and it is not what God wants from human beings. [/quote]

Marrying someone you are not in love with, denying the need for consent and not punishing marital rape is obviously a bad mix.

falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:54am:
If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so.

However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.


Falah, can you explain the apparent contradiction between saying that rape is not a punishable offense and saying there is no evidence it is permissible?

Quote:
Islam does not order a punishment for every single sin, transgression, or wrongdoing. There are some things which are left to God to decide guilt and punishment on the Day of Judgement.


Does that include raping your wife?

Given that you get stoned to death for adultery, that's an unusual set of standards don't you think?

Quote:
Is there any religion which orders a punishment for raping your wife?


Most religions do not double as legal systems and are not a barrier to secular laws that set a higher standard than in the past. Islam does. Are you now supporting the rejection of Islamic law in governance? Or is this another red herring to avoid giving a straight answer?

Quote:
Can you define what you mean by consent?


I am happy to go with the common definition, or as applied under Australian law.

Quote:
If a wife does not object, do you consider that consent?


Sure. Unless she is unconscious or something like that, and provided she is not denied the right and opportunity to object. I don't know why this is an issue. It should be obvious whether a woman consents to sex. Are you trying to avoid the question, or do you not know what consent or rape is?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Annie Anthrax
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Take the plan, spin it
sideways

Posts: 7057
Gender: female
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #8 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 4:20pm
 
Not objecting is certainly not the same as giving consent.

Back to top
 

I can't do this, but I'm doing it anyway.
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 34870
At my desk.
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #9 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 5:43pm
 
Not by itself, no, but there have to be exceptional circumstances for the courts to convict without it.

Falah, can you explain why you kept accusing me of lying in the other thread:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1335528293/24#24

and why you tried so hard to mislead people about this when you had previously admitted it?

Is it something to do with Taqiyya? When you accuse people of lying, does it mean they are to close to the truth for your comfort and you have no rational counterargument? And if you lie so much when you are likely to be caught out, do you lie more when you think you can get away with it?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #10 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 6:07pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 3:47pm:
A woman in Islam has the right to refuse to have sex with her husband, but it's frowned upon. If she has the right to refuse, obviously raping her is not permissable.




How does a bearded numpty 'frown upon' the withholding of ..er.. booty? With a stick no thicker than his thumb.



Back to top
 

No one has the right not to be offended.
 
IP Logged
 
falah
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3162
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #11 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:04pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 4:20pm:
Not objecting is certainly not the same as giving consent.



I see. So in your world, does a woman have to give a written permission or does she just have to say "I want sex" before sex can take place?

What about the husband, should he give written permission too, or should he have to say "I want sex" as well?
Back to top
 

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 34870
At my desk.
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #12 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:20pm
 
You really don't understand the whole consent vs rape thing do you Falah?
Back to top
 

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
falah
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3162
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #13 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:50pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 4:07pm:
Quote:
A woman in Islam has the right to refuse to have sex with her husband, but it's frowned upon. If she has the right to refuse, obviously raping her is not permissable.


If raping her is not punished, does that mean it is legal and permissible?


Not everything that is not punished in this word is legal and permissable

Some actions will be punished in the Hereafter.

God Almighty and His prophet have commanded kind treatment of women. Disobedience to God is something that a person can be punished for in the Hereafter.






freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 4:07pm:
It seems Falah was a bit more generous with the truth on this issue in the past:

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:16pm:
Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam.



Meaning not punishable in this life. As I have said before God Almighty has commanded Muslims to treat women kindly. And God may punish those who disobey Him.


falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:16pm:
Falah, is forced sex in marriage rape?


According to current fashion in Australia it is, but a few decades ago it wasn't






freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 4:07pm:
Okay.

Falah can you explain what you meant?
Quote:
When you marry someone, you have a duty to care for them. This includes satisfying their sexual needs. Therefore, if you don't want to have sex with somebody, then you shouldn't marry them.



If you marry someone you don't want to have sex with, you would be doing a disservice to both yourself and your future spouse.






Quote:
Falah, can you explain the apparent contradiction between saying that rape is not a punishable offense and saying there is no evidence it is permissible?


Rape not punishable? I did not say that. Are you lying again Freediver?

Having sex when one does not have the right to do so is punishable in Islam. I have told you this before, and mentioned that a person can even be stoned to death for this or face other punishments.





Quote:
Quote:
Islam does not order a punishment for every single sin, transgression, or wrongdoing. There are some things which are left to God to decide guilt and punishment on the Day of Judgement.


Does that include raping your wife?


As I have said previously, God Almighty ordered Muslims to be kind to their women. If they disobey God, he has the right to punish whom He wills.



Quote:
Given that you get stoned to death for adultery, that's an unusual set of standards don't you think?


What are you saying Freediver, that you think that a man should be stoned to death for having sex with his wife?




Quote:
Quote:
Is there any religion which orders a punishment for raping your wife?


Most religions do not double as legal systems and are not a barrier to secular laws that set a higher standard than in the past. Islam does. Are you now supporting the rejection of Islamic law in governance? Or is this another red herring to avoid giving a straight answer?


Except Judaism, and Christianity for the first 1 and 1/2 millienia.



Quote:
Quote:
Can you define what you mean by consent?


I am happy to go with the common definition, or as applied under Australian law.



Why Australian law? Do you have such great faith in Australian politicians to get it right?  Australian politicians are fairly good at proving that they are incompetent. Do you approve of the carbon tax Freediver? It is Australian law so it must be right?

Back to top
 

Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 34870
At my desk.
Re: Do muslims even know what rape is?
Reply #14 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 10:58pm
 
Quote:
Not everything that is not punished in this word is legal and permissable


And here I was thinking you were changing the definition of rape to suit Islamic propaganda. Silly me, you were changing the definition of legal.

Quote:
According to current fashion in Australia it is, but a few decades ago it wasn't


Falah, you appear to be confusing what is punished with what is actually rape. Do you know what rape is? If rape is legalised, does it cease to be rape? Do you have your own opinion on whether forced sex on marriage is rape?

Quote:
If you marry someone you don't want to have sex with, you would be doing a disservice to both yourself and your future spouse.


Again, you seem confused about what rape is Falah. We have explained this to you before. Sex is not something you can give meaningful consent forever to. Agreeing to marry someone does not mean you want to have sex at their whim every time.

Quote:
Rape not punishable? I did not say that. Are you lying again Freediver?


You did say that Falah. Which word are you changing the definition of now? Are you back to saying forced sex is not rape?

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 12:16pm:
Forced sex in marriage is not a punishable offence in Islam.


You see Falah, this is what happens when you concoct such an absurdly convoluted set of 'alternative meanings' and facades. You lose track of what you can and cannot say and your spin starts to unravel. Better to be honest and straight about these things. You just can't pull something like this off.

Quote:
Having sex when one does not have the right to do so is punishable in Islam.


So a husband must have a legal right to rape his wife in Islam?

Quote:
As I have said previously, God Almighty ordered Muslims to be kind to their women.


Are you changing the definition of kind now? This would be a whole lot easier if you spoke English Falah, rather than pretend English where words have the opposite of their real meaning if it suits Islamic PR.

Quote:
What are you saying Freediver, that you think that a man should be stoned to death for having sex with his wife?


No. I think stoning someone to death is a sick and twisted thing to do. I am saying it is a very big contrast between being stoned to death for consensual sex (yes I know you have a different definition of this too) and no punishment at all for rape.

Quote:
Why Australian law? Do you have such great faith in Australian politicians to get it right?  Australian politicians are fairly good at proving that they are incompetent. Do you approve of the carbon tax Freediver? It is Australian law so it must be right?


No Falah. Because most people have a grasp of the meaning of rape and consent, and don't say stupid things like why would you marry someone if you didn't want to have sex with them. The legal definition of consent and rape was arrived at through common law, not statutory law. It is basically common sense.

Were you always so confused about what rape and consent mean, or did Islam cloud your judgement?
Back to top
« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:10pm by freediver »  

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 
Send Topic Print