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Islam: serial rape liberates women (Read 9270 times)
freediver
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #15 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:24am
 
Quote:
...And force not your maid servants to prostitution, if they desire chastity...


That seems like a very strange qualifier. Can you explain why they put that on the end of both statements?

Falah, do you disagree with Abu about the 'right' of a slave owner?
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #16 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:08am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 9:24am:
Quote:
...if they desire chastity...


That seems like a very strange qualifier. Can you explain why they put that on the end of both statements?


Seems fairly straight-forward. Does it really need explanation?

If a slave does wants to remain chaste, then the Quran tells us that she should not be forced into sexual service.



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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #17 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:52am
 
So her only options are sexual servitude or chastity?

Does it imply that prostitution is an option if she rejects chastity? Not sure why you went to the trouble of cutting that bit out of the quote.

Quote:
...And force not your maid servants to prostitution, if they desire chastity...


Is Abu wrong about a slave owner's 'right' to rape slaves?
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #18 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 11:52am:
So her only options are sexual servitude or chastity?


Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.


"...it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your wealth, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves... Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing."
[Noble Quran, al-Baqarah, v.177]




"The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)."
[Bukhari]



Prophet Muhammed, personally freed dozens of enslaved people, and also on many occasions ordered that conquered people not be taken into slavery despite enslavement of conquered peoples being a common practice in ancient society.



"'Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that 'Umar b. Khattab asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe I'tikaf for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe I'tikaf for a day. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free. 
[Saheeh al-Muslim]



Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you.
[Noble Quran, an-Noor, v.33]




"Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free.
[Muslim]






Prophet Muhammed's wives also spent their wealth on freeing dozens of slaves.

The first Caliph of the Islamic state, Abu Bakr personally also freed dozens of slaves.

During the Caliphate of the second Calpih, Umar, the Islamic state conquered much of the known world which prompted Umar to order the freeing of thousands of conquered peoples who might otherwise become slaves.

Uthman, the third Caliph of the Islamic state, made a habit of freeing a slave every Friday, and would free slaves when he saw them praying to God.

Islam teaches people not to harm others:

“Whoever causes harm to others subjects himself to harm caused by God.”
[Ibn Majah; Sunan Abu Dawood]


Islam also encourages people to find spouses for slaves so that tey can satisfy their own desires in God-fearing manner.

A slave could become a concubine of her master, or marry someone else, or if remain chaste if she so desired.


Islam teaches people that if they own slaves, then they should treat them well:

Jabir ibn 'Abdullah said, "The Prophet (God bless him and grant him peace) advised that slaves should be well-treated. He said, 'Feed them from what you eat and clothe them from what you wear. Do not punish what God has created.' "
[Al-Adab al-Mufrad Al-Bukhari]



The Non-Muslim Perspective:


Quote:
On the attitude of Muslim master with his slaves, Will Durant says,

"...he handled them with a genial humanity that made their lot no worse - perhaps better, as more secure - than that of a factory worker in nineteenth-century Europe."

Source:  Hurgronje C., Mohammedanism, (N.Y., 1916), p. 128 as quoted by W. Durant, The Story of Civilization, vol. IV (N.Y., 1950), p. 209.


Quote:
At the end of the 18th century, Mouradgea d'Ohsson (a main source of information for the Western writers on the Ottoman empire) declared:

"There is perhaps no nation where the captives, the slaves, the very toilers in the galleys are better provided for or treated with more kindness than among the Muhammedans."   

Source:  As quoted in The Encyclopaedia of Islam, vol.I, p. 35.


Quote:
P. L Riviere writes:

"A master was enjoined to make his slave share the bounties he received from God. It must be recognised that, in this respect, the Islamic teaching acknowledged such a respect for human personality and showed a sense of equality which is searched for in vain in ancient civilization"

Source:  Riviere P.L., Revue Bleaue (June 1939).            


Quote:
Napoleon Bonaparte is recorded as saying about the condition of slaves in Muslim countries:

"The slave inherits his master's property and marries his daughter. The majority of the Pashas had been slaves. Many of the grand viziers, all the Mamelukes, Ali Ben Mourad Beg, had been slaves. They began their lives by performing the most menial services in the houses of their masters and were subsequently raised in status for their merit or by favour. In the West, on the contrary, the slave has always been below the position of the domestic servants; he occupies the lowest rug. The Romans emancipated their slaves, but the emancipated were never considered as equal to the free-born. The ideas of the East and West are so different that it took a long time to make the Egyptians understand that all the army was not composed of slaves belonging to the Sultan al-Kabir."

Source:  Cherfils, Bonaparte et l'Islam (Paris, 1914)



Quote:
Annemarie Schimmel writes:

"The entire history of Islam proves that slaves could occupy any office, and many former military slaves, usually recruited from among the Central Asian Turks, became military leaders and often even rulers as in eastern Iran, India (the Slave Dynasty of Delhi), and medieval Egypt (the Mamluks). “

Source:  "Islam: An Introduction", p. 67



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« Last Edit: Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:52pm by falah »  

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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #19 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:29pm
 
Quote:
Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.


OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.

Quote:
Islam also encourages people to find spouses for slaves so that tey can satisfy their own desires in God-fearing manner.

A slave could become a concubine of her master, or marry someone else, or if remain chaste if she so desired.


So it is not a 'right' of the slave owner at all? It is completely up to the slave? Does she get any say in who she might marry? For example, could she choose to marry a non-Muslim? What if she was already married when she became a slave?
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #20 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:29pm:
Quote:
Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.


OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.



How is it propaganda? I havent heard of muslims having "slaves" ?

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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #21 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:38pm
 
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:35pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:29pm:
Quote:
Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.


OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.



How is it propaganda? I havent heard of muslims having "slaves" ?

SOB


It is still common in many parts of the middle east today. It is a hangover from the days of the Caliphate. It was outlawed around the time of the demise of the Caliphate, largely due to pressure from Great Britain (the 'foreign interference' that Muslims always complain about). Obviously this did not end slavery as it is so ingrained in the culture and religion.
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #22 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 1:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:38pm:
Sir Spot of Borg wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:35pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 28th, 2012 at 12:29pm:
Quote:
Islam tells people to free slaves to to the point where slavery became non-existent in most of the Muslim world many centuries ago.


OK. Let's reject reality and replace it with Islamic propaganda.



How is it propaganda? I havent heard of muslims having "slaves" ?

SOB


It is still common in many parts of the middle east today. It is a hangover from the days of the Caliphate. It was outlawed around the time of the demise of the Caliphate, largely due to pressure from Great Britain (the 'foreign interference' that Muslims always complain about). Obviously this did not end slavery as it is so ingrained in the culture and religion.



Another one of Freediver's lies. Slavery in virtually non-existent in the Middle East.

Of course blackmarket slavery exists in every country including Australia, Israel and the US.

In fact, the Middle East has one of the lowest blackmarket slavery levels out of any region in the world.

...
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #23 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 1:54pm
 
Quote:
In fact, the Middle East has one of the lowest blackmarket slavery levels out of any region in the world.


Because we all know how easy it is to get statistics on the black market, right? Can you give those numbers as a percentage? Or would that make the middle east look bad in comparison to say, the Asia pacific region? Is Islam responsible for the slavery in the asia pacific region?

Does a female slave get any say in who she can marry? Can she marry a non-Muslim?

If she was married when she became a slave, does she remain married to the same man, or does she have to choose between chastity and a Muslim husband?

Was Abu incorrect in claiming that a slave owner has a 'right' to rape slaves?

If Islam does not recognise the need for a wife to consent to sex, how can it do so for a slave, when a slave girl is considered below a wife and con only attain the same level by being raped?

What is the punishment for raping your own slave?
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #24 - Apr 28th, 2012 at 3:32pm
 
Falah, is a female slave the same as a concubine?

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:49am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am:
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?


Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed.

In Islam, a concubine is like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic (sariyyah) comes from the word for marriage (sirr).

Abraham and Muhammed treated their concbines like wives.

The verse of the Quran saying that marrying slaves is allowed was revealed after the Islamic state was attacked by the pagans at the Battle of Uhud (interpretation of the meaning):

“...then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[an-Nisaa' v.4]
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #25 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:52am
 
falah wrote on Apr 27th, 2012 at 10:51pm:
Thereupon the following verse was revealed: "But force not your maids to sexual service (when they desire chastity)."
[Sunan Abu Dawood]


...And force not your maid servants to sexual service, if they desire chastity...
[The noble Quran, An-Nur v.33]



Love that thereupon.
Allah was always on stand-by for Mohammed, always ready to thereupon reveal the needful.
Even Aisha found it suspicious, Allah's readiness to come up just what Mohammed needed, always in the nick of time. Thereupon.
Eternal book, eh?

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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #26 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 8:57pm
 
It's ok to enslave humans,murder them,but it's not ok to have sex with them without their permission...I think?
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #27 - Apr 30th, 2012 at 6:20pm
 
It's more about the permission of the Muslim establishment. Once you have that consent, you do not need the consent of the person you are raping.
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #28 - May 2nd, 2012 at 9:03pm
 
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Re: Islam: serial rape liberates women
Reply #29 - May 2nd, 2012 at 9:04pm
 
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