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Uncle Meat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2434 Tasmania Gender:	Re: bestiality Reply #30 - Apr 25^th, 2012 at 10:17pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 11:41am: Yeah but Muslims are generally as mad as hatters. So marrying animals is probably about their level. Makes a change from blowing up airplanes and children. You're an idiot. Seriously.
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Yadda

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Re: bestiality
Reply #31 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 12:57pm

falah wrote on Apr 25^th, 2012 at 11:25am:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (God's peace & blessings be upon him) said: If anyone has sexual intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill it along with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him (Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal/ He replied: I think he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had been done to it (so the animal should be killed and disposed of immediately to avoid anyone ever eating this tainted animal.)
[Abu Dawood, Book 38, 4449 - graded as hassan (good)]

There are dozens of similar hadeeth in various books of hadeeth.

I am not sure why anyone would keep bringing this issue up unless the aim was to mislead people about Islam.

Freediver you are exposed as a vexacious malignant liar committed to deceiving people about Islam.

You should repent to God for lying.

Underlined above, IS A LIE.

ALSO, the hadith which falah quoted is discredited, it is a hadith verse with no credibility, and is given little or no veracity, among moslem scholars.

And falah would know that.

Quote:

"You should repent to God for lying."

+++

falah's quoted hadith verse.....

Quote:

Book 38, Number 4449:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone has sexual intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill it along with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him (Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal/ He replied: I think he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had been done to it.

NOW, NOTE WELL, what the VERY NEXT hadith verse states.....

Quote:

Book 38, Number 4450:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

There is no prescribed punishment for one who has sexual intercourse with an animal.

N.B.
THESE TWO CONTRADICTORY, SEQUENTIAL, VERSES ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE SAME AUTHOR.

+++

Source #1,

Quote:

Death Penalty for Bestiality

There is nothing about the punishment for bestiality in Muwatta, Bukhari or Muslim. We find some ahadith on the subject in books of Abu Da`ud, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, and Ahmad and, of these muhaddithun those who do express opinions on the authenticity of ahadith they record, do not have a favorable opinion of these particular ahadith.

There is essentially one hadith prescribing death penalty for bestiality:
.....
The following facts about the above narrations, when taken together, leave little doubt that the hadith prescribing the death penalty for sex with animals is a fabrication resulting from some mistake or an outright lie:

First, the hadith is narrated [continued]

http://www.answering-islam.de/Shamoun/bestiality.htm

Source #2,

Quote:

Islam and Bestiality........

In contrast with what secular and non-Islamic religious sources say about bestiality, this is what the Qur'an has to say on the subject:

Quote:

[nada]

That's right - absolutely, positively nothing. Unlike the Qur'an's clear-cut rulings on the morality of homosexuality, Polygamy, rape, and pedophilia, the permissibility of bestiality seems to have been left open to ‘interpretation.’

If Islamic teachings were truly opposed to such a practice, then this omission is somewhat surprising when you consider that, historically, bestiality was indigenously accepted in the Middle-East.[13]
[edit] Hadith

There is no prohibition against bestiality to be found within the two Sahihs. The following hadith is taken from the Sunnah Abu-Dawud collection, not Bukari or Muslim.

Quote:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If anyone has sexual intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill it along with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him (Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal/ He replied: I think he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had been done to it.
Abu Dawud 38:4449

Sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? And it is. Just look at the very next hadith.

Quote:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: There is no prescribed punishment for one who has sexual intercourse with an animal.
Abu Dawud 38:4450

This is a very clear contradiction. How can one hadith say kill the person committing bestiality, and the very next one say there is no prescribed punishment for the same person? Both statements cannot be true.

What's worse; these two contradictory hadiths (transmitted through different isnad) have been attributed to the same person. Abu Dawud himself had said the former of the two hadith is "not strong" and the latter further "weakens" it.[14]

From the above, we can gather that Robert Masters had correctly stated, "bestiality was not specifically prohibited by the Prophet,"[9] so there is little wonder that Islamists generally shy away from mentioning 38:4449 in their pronouncements on bestiality.

http://www.wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Bestiality

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« Last Edit: Apr 26^th, 2012 at 1:07pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: bestiality Reply #32 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 1:05pm wickiislam being a very neutral definitive source of course, and not in the slightest bit anti-islam.
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Yadda

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Re: bestiality
Reply #33 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 1:17pm

muso wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 1:05pm:

wickiislam being a very neutral definitive source of course, and not in the slightest bit anti-islam.

muso,

As far as moslems are concerned, anyone who scrutinises and contradicts and criticises ISLAM is 'anti-ISLAM'.

Unlike yourself [seemingly], i do not care if a source is categorised by moslems as 'anti-ISLAMIC'.

I care only if the information it proffers about ISLAM/moslems is true and provable.

muso,

e.g.
Is this report [below] true ?

Or, is this Christian priest merely an ISLAM-O-PHOBE ????

"They threatened to kill me if I refuse to accept Islam": Misunderstanders of Islam in Istanbul assault priest, threaten to kill him

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/04/they-threatened-to-kill-me-if-i-refuse-to-acce...

muso,

My position is that;

"it isn't islamophobia when they really want to kill you."

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Baronvonrort

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Re: bestiality
Reply #34 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 2:15pm

freediver wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 10:39pm:

Is this true?

Baronvonrort wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 5:35pm:

Frances wrote on Apr 24^th, 2012 at 10:14am:

Maybe the female goats were too much of a temptation for the men that looked after them....

Islam has punishments of 100 lashes or stoning for consenting adults having sex outside of marriage.

This is what the Quran says about having sex with animals-
Quote:

..

There is a hadith-
Abu Dawud 38:4450- There is no prescribed punishment for one who has sexual intercourse with an animal.

Islam has severe punishments for consenting adults who have sex outside of being married which makes sex with animals attractive since that has no punishment.

Simach Masgoof is a national dish of Iraq, it is smoked carp, a bit of trivia for you.

Here is an old locked thread about the same topic.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1223301511

There is no verse in the Quran that prohibits muslims from having sex with animals,there is no verse in the Quran mentioning any punishment for having sex with animals.

The Quran does mention 100 lashes for unmarried consenting couples caught having sex out of wedlock.

The Islamic punishment for adultery is stoning to death.

Listen to the commentary on this one to hear how widespread this is-

I think it is haram to have sex with a pig, sura 5:3 says the flesh of swine is prohibited.
http://quran.com/5/3

That verse also says Islam has been perfected, yeah floggings and stonings for unmarried sex yet no punishment for having sex with an animal,how can this belief claim to be perfected?

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« Last Edit: Apr 26^th, 2012 at 2:21pm by Baronvonrort »

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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falah

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Re: bestiality
Reply #35 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 8:48pm

If anyone has sexual intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill it along with him.
[Sunan Abu-Dawood]

Whoever you find unto (having sex with) an animal, kill him and kill the animal with him.
[Tirmithi]

...Cursed is he who goes in unto (has sex with in other words in Arabic) an animal. Cursed is he who does what the people of Lot did (sodomy; the people of Sodom and Gomorah).
[Musnad Ahmad]

Whoever goes in unto (having sex with) an animal, kill him and kill the animal
[Ibn Majaa]

And those who guard their chastity (i.e. private parts, from illegal sexual acts) Except from their wives or (the concubines) that their right hands possess, for then, they are free from blame; But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors
[Noble Quran, al-Mu'minun, v. 5-7]

"Say: "the things that my Lord hath indeed forbidden are: shameful deeds, whether open or secret; sins and trespasses against truth or reason; assigning of partners to God, for which He hath given no authority; and saying things about God of which ye have no knowledge." (The Noble Quran, 7:33)"

"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran, 30:21)"

"Ye are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in God. If only the People of the Bible (i.e., Jews and Christians) had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 3:110)"

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Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!

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Avram Horowitz Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3153 Australia Gender:	Re: bestiality Reply #36 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 9:31pm The religion that stones to death 13 year old girls for being raped by allow men to sex with animals. I agree with Amnesty International that there is barbaric atrocities in Islam occurring.
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falah

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Re: bestiality
Reply #37 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:07pm

Avram Horowitz wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 9:31pm:

The religion that stones to death 13 year old girls for being raped by allow men to sex with animals.

I agree with Amnesty International that there is barbaric atrocities in Islam occurring.

Why do you agree with that disputed Amnesty International report, but not the ones saying Israel committed war crimes like killing 300 Palestinian children?

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Nothing is worthy of worship except God Almighty - our Creator!

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Soren

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Re: bestiality
Reply #38 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:43pm

falah wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:07pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 9:31pm:

The religion that stones to death 13 year old girls for being raped by allow men to sex with animals.

I agree with Amnesty International that there is barbaric atrocities in Islam occurring.

Why do you agree with that disputed Amnesty International report, but not the ones saying Israel committed war crimes like killing 300 Palestinian children?

Why do you agree with AI when it condemns Israel but not when it condemns Muslims?

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falah

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Re: bestiality
Reply #39 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:50pm

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:43pm:

falah wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:07pm:

Avram Horowitz wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 9:31pm:

The religion that stones to death 13 year old girls for being raped by allow men to sex with animals.

I agree with Amnesty International that there is barbaric atrocities in Islam occurring.

Why do you agree with that disputed Amnesty International report, but not the ones saying Israel committed war crimes like killing 300 Palestinian children?

Why do you agree with AI when it condemns Israel but not when it condemns Muslims?

I would take the word of the Hamas Government before I took the word of Amnest International.

The Hamas Government have documented Israel's war crimes. One day, Israelis will be held accountable for their war crimes.

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Soren

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Re: bestiality
Reply #40 - Apr 26^th, 2012 at 11:18pm

falah wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:50pm:

I would take the word of the Hamas Government before I took the word of Amnesty International.

Nobody ever doubted that that's what you'd do. Hamas is an Islamist organisation while AI is non-political, non-religious one. Of course you'd side with the Islamists.

As an Islamist yourself, you will never publicly find fault with anything another Islamist does.
Which just goes to show that Islam is really just a tribal, clannish code writ large.

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muso

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Re: bestiality
Reply #41 - Apr 27^th, 2012 at 6:55am

Quote:

An old man walks into a pub in Scottland, his feet shuffling, his back bent.
He drags himself onto a stool and orders a beer. Placing the full glass in front of him, the bartender inquires upon his sad face.

The man answers with a gritty and trembling voice and a Scottish accent:
Ah, tell ya man! This pub, this very pub we're just sitting in. I built it, with me own hands! But do they call me the Angus the pub builder? Naa!

See the wall over there, that protects our town? I built it, with me own hands! But do they call me Angus the wallmaker? Oh no.

And the bridge, you know, that crosses our river, I built it, with me own hands! But do they call me Angus the Bridge maker?

But I tell ya, man! You f---- one goat......

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Avram Horowitz

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Re: bestiality
Reply #42 - Apr 27^th, 2012 at 12:02pm

Soren wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 11:18pm:

falah wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 10:50pm:

I would take the word of the Hamas Government before I took the word of Amnesty International.

Nobody ever doubted that that's what you'd do. Hamas is an Islamist organisation while AI is non-political, non-religious one. Of course you'd side with the Islamists.

As an Islamist yourself, you will never publicly find fault with anything another Islamist does.
Which just goes to show that Islam is really just a tribal, clannish code writ large.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation.
Their opinion does not matter.

Please read their reaction to when a suicide bomber murdered children on a school bus.
Hamas claim responsibility and celebrated death of Israeli children.

Yet you think they deserve to be listened?

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Yadda

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Re: bestiality
Reply #43 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 12:41am

falah wrote on Apr 26^th, 2012 at 8:48pm:

If anyone has sexual intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill it along with him.
[Sunan Abu-Dawood]

Whoever you find unto (having sex with) an animal, kill him and kill the animal with him.
[Tirmithi]

...Cursed is he who goes in unto (has sex with in other words in Arabic) an animal. Cursed is he who does what the people of Lot did (sodomy; the people of Sodom and Gomorah).
[Musnad Ahmad]

Whoever goes in unto (having sex with) an animal, kill him and kill the animal
[Ibn Majaa]

And are the hadith Tirmithi, Musnad Ahmad, and Ibn Majaa any more reliable than the hadith Abu-Dawood ???

Quote:

Book 38, Number 4449:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone has sexual intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill it along with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him (Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal/ He replied: I think he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had been done to it.

Book 38, Number 4450:

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:

There is no prescribed punishment for one who has sexual intercourse with an animal.

http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/038-sat.php#038.4450

...BECAUSE THOSE TWO CONTRADICTORY, SEQUENTIAL, VERSES [above, 4449 & 4450] ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE SAME AUTHOR.

And comparing these two hadith verses doesn't give even the slightest confidence in the veracity of any ISLAMIC texts, to anyone seeking to clarify ISLAM's theological authority and consistency.

In fact these two verses prove, how tainted, and how unreliable ISLAM is, as claiming to be a credible 'religious' authority.

And those two hadith verses demonstrate the source of ISLAM's duplicitous nature;

ISLAMIC texts.

+++

ISLAM has no shame, in lying to non-moslems.

And moslems will lyingly declare one thing [pointing to 'authentic' ISLAMIC scripture] to one audience, and will then to declare the exact opposite thing [pointing to 'authentic' ISLAMIC scripture] to a moslem audience.

And be pointing to contradictory content.

ISLAM, duplicitous nature, duplicitous texts.
Example #2, from the Koran;

This is a famous Koran verse, which is often proffered to naive and ignorant non-moslems,
....which moslems offer, 'proving' ISLAM's 'tolerance' of other religions.

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things."
Koran 2.256

BUT, then this is 'authorised' Koran verse which is declared among moslems...

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."
Koran 3.85

How moslems present these two texts [Koran 3.85 and Koran 2.256] to the world, is just another proof of ISLAM's lying duplicitous nature.

A proof of how moslems are misrepresenting ISLAM to naive and ignorant non-moslems.

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« Last Edit: Apr 29^th, 2012 at 12:47am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: bestiality
Reply #44 - Apr 29^th, 2012 at 1:00am

Yadda wrote on Apr 29^th, 2012 at 12:41am:

Book 38, Number 4449:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone has sexual intercourse with an animal, kill him and kill it along with him. I (Ikrimah) said: I asked him (Ibn Abbas): What offence can be attributed to the animal/ He replied: I think he (the Prophet) disapproved of its flesh being eaten when such a thing had been done to it.

Book 38, Number 4450:
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
There is no prescribed punishment for one who has sexual intercourse with an animal.

...BECAUSE THOSE TWO CONTRADICTORY, SEQUENTIAL, VERSES [above, 4449 & 4450] ARE ATTRIBUTED TO THE SAME AUTHOR.

And comparing these two hadith verses doesn't give even the slightest confidence in the veracity of any ISLAMIC texts, to anyone seeking to clarify ISLAM's theological authority and consistency.

Yadda, there is a clear distinction between these two ahadith. The first, quotes the words of Muhammad (pbuh), the second does not.

Not all ahadith are graded as being sources of Islamic jurisprudence. There are many categories of hadith based on what they contain. Some contain the words of God, some contain the words of his prophet (pbuh) and yet others merely contain the words of men. This last category are interesting to study, but they hold no textual authority in Islam.

Hadith are not holy texts in the sense you are suggesting. They are reports (the word hadith comes from the word for 'speech'), and they could be reports about the speech of anyone. Whose speech they are, will determine what role they play in Islamic jurisprudence.

I guess when you've really got nothing to criticise then you are left with nothing else to do but scrape the bottom of the barrel and attempt to fabricate something, hoping that most of your audience are dafter than you.

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