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Question: How Rapists Be Dealt With

Off with their heads! Sharia style!    
  2 (100.0%)
Couple of years in jail will do    
  0 (0.0%)
Luxury Jails like Sweden    
  0 (0.0%)




Total votes: 2
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Does Islam permit rape? (Read 13103 times)
freediver
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Does Islam permit rape?
Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:35pm
 
Lately Abu and Falah have been busy trying to create the impression that Islam does not permit rape. For example by accusing of lying every time I bring this up.

However, in the lengthy debate we have had about whether Islam equates sex and rape, neither Abu nor Falah have contradicted my claim that where Islam permits sex (with your wives and your slaves), it also permits rape.

freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:35pm:
Falah, is this now correct?

Typical Islamic punishments:

Married rapist, 4 witnesses: death by stoning
Married adulterer, 4 witnesses: death by stoning

Unmarried rapist (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping and a fine
Unmarried fornicator (or fewer than 4 witnesses): whipping

Husband raping wife: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Husband having 'consensual' sex with wife: wife's duty

Owner raping a slave: no punishment (concept non-existent in Islam)
Owner having 'consensual' sex with a slave: likewise, no punishment


An interesting unanswered question:

freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:38pm:
Another interesting question - if you refuse to acknowledge the concept of consensual sex as being anything other than sex which Islam permits, how do you define rape?


Here, Falah attempts to argue that unless I can find a passage in the Koran that specifically permits rape, I must be lying about it:

falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:25pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:03am:
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 9:29am:
freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 7:33am:
Like Islam's stance on rape and slavery?


fd, you've been answered on these topics several times in the past, your continual niggling for new little discrepancies you *think* you can use against Islam is just pathetic, really. Grow up.


It is not a 'discrepancy' Abu. Islam permits rape and sex slavery. And you are incapable of criticising it, or even calling it for what it is, because you cannot bring yourself to criticise Islam.


Freediver, don't you get sick of lying? You have made this claim many times, but have yet to demonstrate exactly where Islam permits rape.

Provide proof or be proven for the liar that you are.


falah wrote on Mar 3rd, 2012 at 10:03pm:
Soren wrote on Mar 3rd, 2012 at 2:08pm:
Muhammad said: "If a husband calls his wife to his bed [i.e. to have sexual relation] and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning" (Bukhari 4.54.460).

He also said: "By him in Whose Hand lies my life, a woman can not carry out the right of her Lord, till she carries out the right of her husband. And if he asks her to surrender herself [to him for sexual intercourse] she should not refuse him even if she is on a camel's saddle" (Ibn Majah 1854).


"When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven."...

...SO there is no rape in islam only in so far as there is no refusal of sex by a wife if the husband wants it.



You have not given us any verse from the Quran or hadeeth that mentions rape or forced sex. What you have shown is advice that islam gives to women. All you have shown us that Islam advises women that they have a duty to satisfy the sexual needs of their husbands. There is no mention of rape or forced sex.




falah wrote on Mar 3rd, 2012 at 10:21am:
Freediver you keep lying that Islam promotes rape. Yet you haven't shown me the where the word "rape" or "force" appears in the Quran.



The other strategy - accuse me of lying about it then change the topic and hope no-one notices.

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 1:07pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:03am:
Islam permits rape and sex slavery. And you are incapable of criticising it, or even calling it for what it is, because you cannot bring yourself to criticise Islam.


I'm incapable of criticising it, because it's a load of nonsense.

But whatever keeps you happy, keep believing your delusions.


falah wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 6:47pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 3:57pm:
Does that make Islam's promotion of rape and slavery look any more decent?

Don't you fel ashmed to lie so much? Islam promotes neither slavery nor rape.


falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 6:06pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 3:26pm:
Quote:
"Sex slavery" as is understood in the modern use of the word is not allowed in islam.


Yet they are still sex slaves, aren't they? You just rape them to glorify God instead. Apparently this is done in a dignified manner.


Don't you ever tire of lying freediver?


falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:07am:
In Islam, it is forbidden to force slaves into sexual service (which was common practice in non-Islamic society).

In Pre-Islamic Arabia, warriors would rape female captives on the battle field (and this is quite normal for non-Muslim armies as we have seen in Bosnia, or with the 2 million German women gangraped by Soviets after WWII. Islam forbade this evil.


Here is Falah attempting to argue that slavery is like cigarrettes - you can legalise it but still pretend that you 'discourage' it.

falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:16am:
freediver wrote on Mar 17th, 2012 at 7:12pm:
Quote:
Don't you fel ashmed to lie so much? Islam promotes neither slavery nor rape.


Do you think that legalising something encourages it?


The Australian government has not made smoking cigarettes illegal. Are they encouraging it?

  • In 1945 approximately 72% of Australian men smoked.

    The rate has been dropping since then.

    In 2010 only 16.4% of Australian males (14 years or older) were daily smokers.


The government has dicouraged smoking whilst not making it illeagal.


Some of the ways in which Muslims 'redefine' the concept of consent - it appears sex is only 'consensual' if God (ie Islamic law) approves. The consent of the woman involved is a mere technicality - that's what a marriage agreement is (even an 'organised' one as called for by Islam), and as far as I can tell there is not even a pretense of obtaining consent from a slave.

falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 12:33am:
The only consensual sex recognised in Islam is that which occurs between a man married to a woman.

As I said before their are at least three stakeholders involved in any sexual relationaship; the most important one being the Creator, God Almighty.

The Creator has only given his consent for his creation to have sex in the confines of marriage. Any other sex is non-consensual.



falah wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:07am:
God, the Creator, is a stakeholder in the activities of his creation. To claim that something that He has forbidden can be consensual, is disrespectful to God.


falah wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 9:39pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:52pm:
Quote:
Yes, I would like to see the Quranic verse legalising rape. Do you have it or are you just lying like usual?

What you are telling me is that a Muslim man may rape and beat his wives and slaves and donkeys. But only if they are disobedient, which makes it OK.


You are a liar Freediver. You know I said no such thing. Lying seems to be a big habit of yours.

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:52pm:
Quote:
When you marry someone, you have a duty to care for them. This includes satisfying their sexual needs. Therefore, if you don't want to have sex with somebody, then you shouldn't marry them.


What if you want to have sex with them occasionally, when both of you consent, rather than becoming their sex slave.


Isn't it selfish to deny your partner sex? Afterall sex doesn't cost you anything.

freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:52pm:
is that just western nonsense, like falling in love before you get married?


You mean try before you buy? Yes that is nonsense, and it is not what God wants from human beings. Non-marital sex is one of the reasons that there is so much AIDS in the world today, as well as herpes, gonnorhea, syphilis, hpv, etc.

Freediver do you like for your sister to be fornicated? How about your mother? Your sister?

It would be hypocritical of you to do it to someone else's mother/daughter/sister if you didn't like it for your own family.
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« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:44pm by freediver »  

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #1 - Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:37pm
 
falah wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:11am:
freediver wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:16am:
OK Falah, can you explain whether a husband has to get his wife's permission to have sex with her?


Why would a woman marry a man who she did not want to have sex with? Doesn't make sense?


on the issue of consent from a slave:

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:49am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am:
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?


Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed.

In Islam, a concubine is like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic (sariyyah) comes from the word for marriage (sirr).

Abraham and Muhammed treated their concbines like wives.

The verse of the Quran saying that marrying slaves is allowed was revealed after the Islamic state was attacked by the pagans at the Battle of Uhud (interpretation of the meaning):

“...then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[an-Nisaa' v.4]




So anyway - here is a simple request for a straight answer from the Muslims here - does Islam permit rape in the situations I listed above?

Please do not ask me to prove that Islam permits rape, or accuse me of lying then change the subject as if nothing needs explaining here, or try to invent a different meaning for rape or consent - speak English and use the English meaning for rape and consent.
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« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:45pm by freediver »  

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #2 - Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 10:37pm:
falah wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 11:11am:
freediver wrote on Feb 4th, 2012 at 8:16am:
OK Falah, can you explain whether a husband has to get his wife's permission to have sex with her?


Why would a woman marry a man who she did not want to have sex with? Doesn't make sense?

Actually it does make sense.  Just because you marry someone, it doesn't follow that you would want to have sex with him at any time of the day or night.  And that comment by falah seems to assume that a woman marries a man because she loves him and remains in love with him for the rest of their lives together.  What if the man is unfaithful?  Can you imagine a woman wanting to have sex with her husband if he had been having sex with another woman a few hours earlier?  What if her husband beats her?  Would she really want to be intimate with him?  And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it?  Not everyone feels like having sex at the drop of a hat.
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #3 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:03am
 
I'd like to know if Islam permits rap.

After all, they're not singing, they're talking. Does it count as music?
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #4 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:35am
 
Frances wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:26pm:
What if the man is unfaithful? 


In such a case, the woman should get a divorce. Islam actually considers an accusation of adultery as a divorce.

Frances wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:26pm:
What if her husband beats her?  Would she really want to be intimate with him? 


If a husband abuses his wife, and she feels strongly about it, then she can get a divorce.
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #5 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:53am
 
I would think that divorce would be a possibility but divorces can take some time to finalise (unless they happen unusually quickly in the Islamic world).  Would she have to have sex with him whenever he wanted until the divorce was finalised?

And what if the woman did not avail herself of the opportunity of a divorce because she had no money and nowhere to go?
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #6 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:15am
 
Frances wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 11:26pm:
What if the man is unfaithful?
A muslim man can have 4 wives, sex with slaves is halal so how can he be unfaithful when Allah allows this. 


Can you imagine a woman wanting to have sex with her husband if he had been having sex with another woman a few hours earlier?
According to Islam the woman must put out  if the husband desires a bit,she has to stop cooking-cleaning if he wants sex


What if her husband beats her?
Wife beating is not a crime in Islam,there is no such concept as domestic violence in Islam that is a concept that came from the west.
Allah the most merciful allows wife beating if you fear disobedience, sura 4:34 will explain womens rights in Islam

http://quran.com/4/34
Read all translations.

 
And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it?
Bad luck

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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #7 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:18am
 
Frances wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:53am:
I would think that divorce would be a possibility but divorces can take some time to finalise (unless they happen unusually quickly in the Islamic world). 



Frances wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:53am:
And what if the woman did not avail herself of the opportunity of a divorce because she had no money and nowhere to go?


That wold be her choice. You could argue the same for a prostitue, should she give up her trade and possibly face poverty?

In Islam husbands have to provide short term maintenance for the wife, long term maintenance or any children, and ar also encouraged to give an extra financial gift to ease the the difficulty for the divorced wife.
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #8 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:54am
 
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:15am:
Quote:
What if her husband beats her?

Wife beating is not a crime in Islam,there is no such concept as domestic violence in Islam that is a concept that came from the west.
Allah the most merciful allows wife beating if you fear disobedience, sura 4:34 will explain womens rights in Islam

http://quran.com/4/34
Read all translations.


The beating is considered a last resort in he case of a rebellious wife, and requires leaving the marital bed beforehand. So obviously, it is not a tool to force women to have sex, because a condition for beaing the wife is to leave the marital bed.

It is a last resort, and there are many hadeeth demonstrating that Prophet Muhammed, God's peace & blessings upon him, discouraged people from beating their wives. He absoultely forbid anyone to hit the face. He also said warned that any beating must be gentle. His companions explained that if someone beat hs wife, he should only do so with a tootbrush made from a twig - which oviously would not cause any injury.

 Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:15am:
Quote:
And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it?

Bad luck



If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so.

However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.

On the contrary,

O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness...live with them honourably...
[Quran, an-Nisaa, v.19]


And among His (God's) signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find serenity in them, and He has ordained between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect.
[Quran, ar-Rum, v.31]


...And force not your female slaves into sexual service, if they desire chastity...

[Quran an-Noor, v.33]



On many occasions he said: "I commend you to be good to women"

He also said:

Treat women well. Women were created from a rib. The most crooked part of the rib is the top part. If you try to straighten it, you will break it. If you leave it, it remains crooked. So treat women well.’ (Bukhari & Muslim)


‘The most perfect of believers in belief is one who is best of them in character. The best of you are those who are the best to their women." (Tirmidhi)



Now let us contrast this to the Bible


Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle.  "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded.  "...They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people.  Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man.  Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.
[Numbers 31:7-18]


If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
[Deuteronomy 22:28-29]


When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.   (Exodus 21:7-11

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house.  But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb.  After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.  However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
[Deuteronomy 21:10-14]
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #9 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:17pm
 
falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:54am:
If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so.

However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.

I don't think you can compare a man going to work to provide for his family with a woman opening up her legs so her husband can have sex with her.  The former is satisfying essential needs without which the family would suffer, the latter is, if the woman does not want to have sex at that point in time, solely about satisfying the sexual desires of one person, the man.  From the third sentence I have quoted though, I get the feeling that saying no on the odd occasion would be considered acceptable, as long as she didn't refuse too often.

Me?  As much as I enjoy sex, there have been times that I have not felt like it and I have said so.  If the husband has any feelings for the wife, he respects that request, and leaves it until another day.  Sex is an intimate act between two people and is not just about satisfying the sexual impulses of a man.  There needs to be love and compassion between both parties.  If the man has neither love nor compassion for the woman, he may as well just use his right hand instead....
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #10 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:42pm
 
Quote:
In such a case, the woman should get a divorce. Islam actually considers an accusation of adultery as a divorce


So instead of 'no means no', in Islam it is 'you cheated on me means no' - and the (now ex-) husband then risks being stoned to death if he continues raping his wife?

Quote:
If a husband abuses his wife, and she feels strongly about it, then she can get a divorce.


If he beats and rapes his wife, and she responds with divorce, can she seek further punishment in court?

Quote:
The beating is considered a last resort in he case of a rebellious wife, and requires leaving the marital bed beforehand. So obviously, it is not a tool to force women to have sex, because a condition for beaing the wife is to leave the marital bed.


Is that the only place Muslims are allowed to have sex?

Quote:
If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?


Actually we do Falah. At least, we do not force people to work the way Muslims can force women to have sex.

Quote:
If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so


In other words, rape is permitted, because the wrong is in refusing to have sex?

Quote:
However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.


Is there anything to suggest it is not permitted? Is this just a way to pretend rape is forbidden when it is not?

Quote:
O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will


Can you explain how this fits in with the Islamic concept of enslaving women? Is this a contradiction?

Quote:
...And force not your female slaves into sexual service, if they desire chastity...


Can you clarify whether this means having sex with other people, or their owner? Also, what is the punishment? Or is this something that is merely 'discouraged'?

Also, does it imply that the only option open to a slave is chastity or being raped by her owner? Are slaves allowed to have sex with each other? Is it 'open season' for the owner once she has lost her virginity?

Can you explain why, in the other thread, you said that being raped reduces the price of a slave?
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #11 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 1:39pm
 
falah wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:54am:
Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:15am:
Quote:
What if her husband beats her?

Wife beating is not a crime in Islam,there is no such concept as domestic violence in Islam that is a concept that came from the west.
Allah the most merciful allows wife beating if you fear disobedience, sura 4:34 will explain womens rights in Islam

http://quran.com/4/34
Read all translations.


The beating is considered a last resort in he case of a rebellious wife, and requires leaving the marital bed beforehand. So obviously, it is not a tool to force women to have sex, because a condition for beaing the wife is to leave the marital bed.
So allah the most merciful does allow wife beating.
Banishing them to beds apart does work when you have 4 wives.
So what is the purpose of this divinely sanctioned wife beating?


It is a last resort, and there are many hadeeth demonstrating that Prophet Muhammed, God's peace & blessings upon him, discouraged people from beating their wives.There is a hadith where Aisha said Mo hit her and it hurt
He absoultely forbid anyone to hit the face. He also said warned that any beating must be gentle. His companions explained that if someone beat hs wife, he should only do so with a tootbrush made from a twig - which oviously would not cause any injury.
There is no mention of a miswak in sura 4.34,in fact there is nothing about how hard you can hit your wife.

 Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:15am:
Quote:
And, what if she just didn't feel like doing it?

Bad luck



If a man says "He does not feel like going out to work and providing for his family" do we accept this?

If a woman refuses sex to her husband then she has wronged him. Afterall, it would cost her nothing to do so.
How has she wronged him by not wanting to have sex?

However, there is no evidence in Islam o suggest that forcing people to have sex is permitted.
What about the sex slave threads?
Does a slave have the right to say NO?
Does the wife have the right to say NO?




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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #12 - Apr 24th, 2012 at 8:27pm
 
falah wrote on Apr 24th, 2012 at 7:43pm:
Frances wrote on Apr 23rd, 2012 at 11:43pm:
Sounds similar to what happens to  “those whom one's right hand possesses”


Frances, the rabbi is saying that Jews can rape  women on the battlefield.

There is nothing like this in Islam.


Falah don't you think it is a bit deceptive to claim that Islamic rape is nothing like this, when the only difference is that Muslims have to drag the women off the battlefield first so they can be raped in a dignified manner?
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #13 - Apr 25th, 2012 at 11:40pm
 
Frances wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:17pm:
I don't think you can compare a man going to work to provide for his family with a woman opening up her legs so her husband can have sex with her. The former is satisfying essential needs without which the family would suffer, the latter is, if the woman does not want to have sex at that point in time, solely about satisfying the sexual desires of one person, the man.


Fulfilment of sexual needs are very important to maintaining a harmonious society. To dismiss them as merely being a casual want is not really an accurate picture.

Frances wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:17pm:
Me?  As much as I enjoy sex


More information than we really needed to know.

Frances wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:17pm:
If the husband has any feelings for the wife, he respects that request, and leaves it until another day.


Agreed. But likewise if the other partner has any feelings for the one who needs to be satisfied, then they'd probably just do it for them anyway. It goes both ways.

Frances wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:17pm:
Sex is an intimate act between two people and is not just about satisfying the sexual impulses of a man.  There needs to be love and compassion between both parties..


Yes, forcing someone would seem to detract from the meaningfulness of it somewhat.
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Re: Does Islam permit rape?
Reply #14 - Apr 26th, 2012 at 8:28am
 
Quote:
Fulfilment of sexual needs are very important to maintaining a harmonious society. To dismiss them as merely being a casual want is not really an accurate picture.


How does that work with the one man, four wives thing? Didn't you once claim that many men are not good enough to 'deserve' a wife? I think you or Falah also described marriage as a right that is even extended to slaves.

Are the leftover men supposed to go off to war and either get killed or bring back a few slave girls? Many academics credit Islam's view on marriage, sex etc with the dysfunction seen in so many modern Islamic societies.

Quote:
Yes, forcing someone would seem to detract from the meaningfulness of it somewhat.


But not enough to actually punish the husband/slave owner for rape?
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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