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Muslims want 'freedom'? (Read 17924 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #30 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:50pm:
Abu I am not going to attempt a precise definition for you...


Right, because as always you prefer to hide behind ambiguous meanings, like with democracy.

freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:50pm:
I am not asking you whether Islam conforms to my concept of freedom, or to anyone else's. I am asking you whether you think Islam rejects freedom - obviously this means your own view of freedom.


Ok, according to my view of freedom, no, Islam does not reject freedom, it came to establish it for all mankind.
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #31 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:38pm
 
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:59pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:53pm:
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:55am:
Western society keeps billions of people in economic chains to use them as slaves, which is actually a lot more effective than direct captivity.
As a result of this billions suffer their entire lives and billions die due to poverty and other things as a result.

But I am sure this would not bother any of you.


Does this mean you would be in favour of an Islamic style return to the legalisation of slavery? Or would you change your tune pretty quickly once the reality sunk in?

The only difference here is that one society admits it and the other lies about it..
Both seem bad but I would rather we admit it


So you see no difference between being physically enslaved by other people and having to make some tough choices about how to support yourself?
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #32 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:41pm
 
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Right, because as always you prefer to hide behind ambiguous meanings, like with democracy.


Democracy is rule by majority. That is simple. You get confused here because you mistake democracy for all the other values (like freedom) that are necessary for it to function. Attempting a precise definition of freedom could go on for ten pages and get nowhere.

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Ok, according to my view of freedom, no, Islam does not reject freedom, it came to establish it for all mankind.


Can you explain this?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #33 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:41pm:
Democracy is rule by majority. That is simple. You get confused here because you mistake democracy for all the other values (like freedom) that are necessary for it to function.


Democracy does involve a certain belief in freedom, because if one trusts in the majority to rule, then one already extends to them the freedom to rule by whatever takes their fancy. This inherently erodes the concept of pre-defined values, which cannot be impinged upon by any interest groups.

Democracy is a failed system for this reason, and one which leads to societal decay.

freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:41pm:
Attempting a precise definition of freedom could go on for ten pages and get nowhere.


And yet still never be agreed upon by all, precisely my point... you've been led to it, but you still refuse to drink it.

freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:41pm:
Quote:
Ok, according to my view of freedom, no, Islam does not reject freedom, it came to establish it for all mankind.


Can you explain this?


I asked you to do that first. You refused, and then request the same from me... poor show fd.
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #34 - Mar 19th, 2012 at 10:35pm
 
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I asked you to do that first. You refused, and then request the same from me... poor show fd.


I am not asking you for a precise definition of freedom. Nor am I insisting that the issue cannot be discussed until we have such a precise definition. One is a stupid demand from someone with something to hide, the other is the rational way to approach such a debate.

I am asking you how you manage to reconcile Islam with freedom. For example, can you reconcile freedom of religion with stoning someone to death for rejecting Islam (a religion that also makes the claim that there should be no compulsion in religion). How you define freedom should become apparent from your answer, if you have nothing to hide.
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #35 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 1:04am
 
Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:43pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 6:16pm:
Avram Horowitz wrote on Mar 18th, 2012 at 8:44pm:
If they does not like the checkpoints the Palestinians can know that the security fence construction helps to make them less so,,

So is crazy to keep making threats on this constructions of it.


Sorry, but if you waltzed into my country, put up checkpoints and started making my life hell, I'd make sure you suffered every second of it.

Get the hell outta their land, and then they will have no problem with you, I'm sure.

When you're back in Czechoslovakia or wherever you said you hail from, then I'm sure Palestinians would have no problem with you at all. Whilst you're putting up checkpoints in their country, making their lives a misery, then you can expect a little resistance.


No you are wrong, I can not leave my own country, I am Israeli it is my home,

Czech? No this is not my homeland,  is country of grandparentage before land of Israel homeland,

We can not leave because is our land.

"Take this land for I am the LORD, this land shall be given to the children of Abraham and of Isaac. Take this land in my name."

Exodus


What utter BS ... you and everyone else knows G-d never said any such thing, Exodus and every other Torah chapter was written by man not god, and those men were zionist JEWS. 

Oh! and BTW Arabs are also children of Abraham ... So give them back "their" Land and their FREEDOM!!!!


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Jan
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #36 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 1:25am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:41pm:
Democracy is rule by majority. That is simple. You get confused here because you mistake democracy for all the other values (like freedom) that are necessary for it to function. Attempting a precise definition of freedom could go on for ten pages and get nowhere.


So why are you goading Abu for a precise meaning of what freedom means to Islam?

Why not ask a Saudi that question, they have all the freedom they want and need, curtesy of their oil supplies and the wealth generated via their USraeli friendship and their willingness to accept the US$ as payment ...

Your problem Fd is that you are the one who changes the subject and twist what people say even when it is made totally clear ... You just love muddying the waters like a typical wannabe pollie..

And just when did the "majority" of Australians get to make the rules? Democracy doesn't exist here, in Britain or in the US ... The US is a fascist government, Britain and Australia are communist ... we just haven't woken up yet ... but the time is looming.


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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #37 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 8:48am
 
Abu, here is a definition for you: Freedom in the political context is the principle that restrictions on a person's thoughts or actions should only be justified based on actual and demonstrable harm to others, or where it infringes on the rights and freedoms of others.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #38 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 9:40am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 8:48am:
Abu, here is a definition for you: Freedom in the political context is the principle that restrictions on a person's thoughts or actions should only be justified based on actual and demonstrable harm to others, or where it infringes on the rights and freedoms of others.


Ok, can you clarify then if your concept of freedom involves letting people commit a few specific acts:

incest (consenting adults of course)
bestiality (we don't ask their consent to kill and eat them, so why get all morally bent out of shape about buggerising them?)
drug abuse
assisted suicide
self mutilation
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #39 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm
 
The harm from incest comes in at least two forms. One is abuse of power, which can happen even if both parties are adults. This undermines the concept of consent. There is also obviously harm to the potential offspring. This can theoretically be negated with birth control, though that would then involve the government interfering in your sex life and is unlikely to be effective.

We have all sorts of double standards when it comes to animals. Buggering them does harm them. Plus I suspect it can transmit nasty new disaeases. We generally assign a very limited set of rights to animals, usually along the lines of pain can only be justified for food and must be minimised where practicable.

Many people are harmed by drug abuse. This is an area of very active discussion regarding freedom and other values, as there are plenty of people who use hard drugs without harming others, and a lot of the damage is a result of legislation and not the drug abuse alone.

In assisted suicide, the person assisting does harm to the person they kill, by killing them.

Self mutilation is an act of freedom. People do this sort of thing to varying degrees (starting with piercings and tattoos). I think we only intervene when it appears the person has psychological problems and will end up regretting it when those problems go away.



Can you give a rough indication of what your concept of freedom is - as I did above?

How can you reconcile this concept of freedom with slavery, stoning people to death for rejecting Islam, all all the other ways that Islamic law restricts people's choice?
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #40 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 1:09pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:38pm:
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 7:59pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 12:53pm:
bobbythefap1 wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 9:55am:
Western society keeps billions of people in economic chains to use them as slaves, which is actually a lot more effective than direct captivity.
As a result of this billions suffer their entire lives and billions die due to poverty and other things as a result.

But I am sure this would not bother any of you.


Does this mean you would be in favour of an Islamic style return to the legalisation of slavery? Or would you change your tune pretty quickly once the reality sunk in?

The only difference here is that one society admits it and the other lies about it..
Both seem bad but I would rather we admit it


So you see no difference between being physically enslaved by other people and having to make some tough choices about how to support yourself?

See that’s the problem, because one method is direct so it is obviously bad and people oppose it while one method is indirect so it is not so obvious and people tend not to care about it.
The people at the top in western society have worked out that if you are directly violent and oppressive your regime will tumble soon enough, but if you set up a society where people are oppressed not directly people will stay submissive and un-assured of their situation.
Most people do not have a choice; this form of slavery quite literally puts billions of people into poverty and starves them or uses them quite literally as slaves when you consider that they get 10 cents a day or something like that.
In an obviously oppressive dictatorship your hate goes directly to the state, eventually resulting in an uprising. In a subtle non direct dictatorship your hate becomes misguided and as a society lacks the evolutionary push to create an uprising.
If you really think about it you will realise that both methods of slavery result in exactly the same product.

I really wish I could explain this better but please think about it.
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abu_rashid
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #41 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 1:39pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
The harm from incest comes in at least two forms. One is abuse of power, which can happen even if both parties are adults. This undermines the concept of consent.


But it can occur in non-incestual relationships too, so why is it only legitimate in your eyes to curb people's freedom over it in this case?

And how do you justify curbing the freedom of those who have relationships of this nature that clearly don't involve abuse of power?

It seems that, not unlike me, you also disapprove of freedom when it comes to acts you consider to be wrong. You just aren't honest enough to admit it, fearing you'll appear as a hypocrite after harping on about unfettered freedom all this time.

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
There is also obviously harm to the potential offspring. This can theoretically be negated with birth control, though that would then involve the government interfering in your sex life and is unlikely to be effective.


Well I guess that's the choice they can make, no? Also there's plenty of people with inheritable genetic conditions, yet we don't intervene in their family planning choices, why not?

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
We have all sorts of double standards when it comes to animals.


So make yourself consistent then.

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
Buggering them does harm them.


I'm sure there's plenty of cases in which it doesn't. In those cases it should be legalised? For instance a female human pairing with a male horse is obviously dangerous to the human, but I'm sure the opposite way around should be ok in your freedom worshipping utopia shouldn't it?

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
Plus I suspect it can transmit nasty new disaeases.


Same with homosexuality, you don't seem to mind that. As the proponents of homosexuality argued: "If you practice safe sex, then it reduces the risks".

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
We generally assign a very limited set of rights to animals, usually along the lines of pain can only be justified for food and must be minimised where practicable.


I'm sure many animals would prefer to be buggerised than carved up and consumed.

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
Many people are harmed by drug abuse. This is an area of very active discussion regarding freedom and other values, as there are plenty of people who use hard drugs without harming others, and a lot of the damage is a result of legislation and not the drug abuse alone.


How about drinking goom?

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
In assisted suicide, the person assisting does harm to the person they kill, by killing them.


But they asked them to. They call it "mercy killing". So unassisted suicide is alright then?

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
Self mutilation is an act of freedom.


Your kind of freedom, yes, mine, no.

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
People do this sort of thing to varying degrees (starting with piercings and tattoos). I think we only intervene when it appears the person has psychological problems and will end up regretting it when those problems go away.


So people who have amputation fetishes and the like, no go? But if you just like to slash your skin a bit, it's all good?

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
Can you give a rough indication of what your concept of freedom is - as I did above?


My concept of freedom is simple, whatever God has permitted for us is allowed.

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
How can you reconcile this concept of freedom with slavery


Slavery in Islam is abolished except in one case. That of those who wage war against the Muslims. In this case they forfeit their rights to freedom. So it's quite easily reconcilable, as slavery is not something Islam promotes, it merely retains it as a punishment for one certain crime.

Imprisoning people is pretty much the same thing. People are imprisoned for life in this society, yet you don't think it is slavery... why not?

freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
stoning people to death for rejecting Islam, all all the other ways that Islamic law restricts people's choice?


Again, do you think capital punishment for treason in the U.S means they don't believe in your vague concept of "freedom"?
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #42 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 6:51pm
 
Quote:
See that’s the problem, because one method is direct so it is obviously bad and people oppose it while one method is indirect so it is not so obvious and people tend not to care about it.


Who exactly are you accusing of not caring about it? Australia has very generous social welfare preceisly so that people never feel like that have no choice. There is always a choice and there are plenty of people around who think that rejecting wealth, rather than accumulating it is the key to freedom.

Quote:
I really wish I could explain this better but please think about it.


I have thought about it and I think you are wrong about our society.

Quote:
It seems that, not unlike me, you also disapprove of freedom when it comes to acts you consider to be wrong.


I have not made any absolutist moral claims about it. I acknowledged the tradeoffs involved, just as you did. It is not the freedom I disapprove of, it is the abuse of power and the children born with deformities when this could have been avoided.

Quote:
You just aren't honest enough to admit it, fearing you'll appear as a hypocrite after harping on about unfettered freedom all this time.


I am just as critical when westerners attempt to infringe on the rights of Muslims Abu. When have I ever argued that freedom can be 'unfettered'? How many times do I have to correct you on this before you stop lying about it?

Quote:
Same with homosexuality


No it is not the same. It can only transmit diseases already existing in the human population. It cannot transmit new diseases in the way that bestiality can. Note that the emphasis here is on 'new'.

Quote:
My concept of freedom is simple, whatever God has permitted for us is allowed.


This is the opposite of freedom Abu, or the rejection of freedom, not merely a different concept of it, and it is deceptive to attempt to argue that there is any similarity between this and the natural limitations to freedom when people interact with each other and have to take other peoples rights and freedoms into account. Islam is about submission, not freedom, and you cannot equate the two while attempting to impose the same submission on other people.

Quote:
Slavery in Islam is abolished except in one case. That of those who wage war against the Muslims.


According to Falah, children can be born into slavery even if they have never waged war against Muslims.
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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #43 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 6:56pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 19th, 2012 at 8:41pm:
Quote:
Right, because as always you prefer to hide behind ambiguous meanings, like with democracy.


Democracy is rule by majority. That is simple. You get confused here because you mistake democracy for all the other values (like freedom) that are necessary for it to function. Attempting a precise definition of freedom could go on for ten pages and get nowhere.

Quote:
Ok, according to my view of freedom, no, Islam does not reject freedom, it came to establish it for all mankind.


Can you explain this?


Why don't YOU explain something for a change Fd? You're fond of this kind of deceit of answering a question with a question, but never never do YOU 'explain' or elucidate ...

Afraid of looking like the idiot you are, or just realise that constant aggravation will eventually drive people away from relentlless veiled insults and inuendo?

You think it's smart and shows superiority but eventually the truth will out and people will wake up to ALL your deceptions on this forum ... How many identities do you have by the way? And how many stooges do you panda to?





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Re: Muslims want 'freedom'?
Reply #44 - Mar 20th, 2012 at 8:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 20th, 2012 at 12:47pm:
The harm from incest comes in at least two forms. One is abuse of power, which can happen even if both parties are adults. This undermines the concept of consent. There is also obviously harm to the potential offspring. This can theoretically be negated with birth control, though that would then involve the government interfering in your sex life and is unlikely to be effective.


Can you please explain to Abu why incest is so acceptable to our society ... ie Royal families and the Rothchilds (who enabled the establishment of the State of Israel) practice incest, in some cases they only allow marriage to another family member in order to keep their bloodline 'pure'.

"Mayer Rothschild successfully kept the fortune in the family with carefully arranged marriages, often between first or second cousins (similar to Royal intermarriage). By the late 19th century, however, almost all Rothschilds had started to marry outside the family, usually into the aristocracy or other financial dynasties."

Quote:
In assisted suicide, the person assisting does harm to the person they kill, by killing them.


That's utter crap ... by denying assisted suicide in cases of terminal disease or permanent and unbearable pain is the true HARM ... if you keep an animal alive and in pain you can be prosecuted ... but with humans the zionist medical 'establishment' insist on keeping them alive to continue their suffering so they can continue with their research (virtually treating patients as guinea pigs) until they find a 'cure' that is expensive and 'destroys' the immune system, and provides billions to 'medical science' that patients never benefit from.

"There are more millionaires made from cancer "research"  (mostly funds raised by victims or their families and the general public), than there are people dying from it.

The harm isn't just to patients but to the families as well.

And I know this from FIRST hand not just by googling.





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