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does Islam equate sex and rape? (Read 46528 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #30 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 5:38am
 
All language is encoding, if the encoding is more efficient it does not detract from the sentiment expressed.

Only a complete git would think otherwise.
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #31 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:14am
 
falah wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 5:25pm:
Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....


Yadda I posted this verse below on a number of occasions, so now can only assume that you are deliberately lying and deceiving:

God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]





Yadda wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 3:46pm:
Clearly ISLAM sanctifies, and legitimises, a full-blown enmity and hatred, which ISLAM, and Allah, express and encourage, towards non-moslems [non-moslems who may be in every way, otherwise peaceable and faultless people].


Another lie Yadda.

I find your lies ironic considering how it was kindness from Muslims which attraacted me towards their religion many years ago.

falah wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 4:44pm:
And ISLAM mandates [obligates] moslem enmity and warfare against all non-moslems, who reject moslem authority, over their lives.


Lying again Yadda?

God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”
[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]


.....Yadda your arguments are based on either lies or ignorance.






falah,

My assertions ARE NOT LIES, AT ALL.

It is moslems who are lying, and it is moslems who are misrepresenting [concealing] ISLAM's 'sanctified' violent intent, towards ALL non-moslems.

Moslems are LIARS, who are intentionally misrepresenting ISLAM to non-moslems.





In post # 22 you present the actions of Mohammed, as an example of his 'kindness' to 'unbelievers'.

Q.
Yes, and what was the form, of this demonstration of Mohammed's 'kindness' to 'unbelievers' ?

A.
Mohammed's demonstration of 'kindness' to 'unbelievers', WAS,    ........FOR Mohammed TO ASK TWO 'UNBELIEVERS' TO CONVERT TO ISLAM.



Wow, what an act of kindness, shown by Allah's prophet, to two despicable 'unbelievers' !!

/sarc off





And you quote Koran 60.8 to refute my assertion that;
".....Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers...."



You claim that Allah does allow moslems to be kind to 'unbelievers'.

But that [your] assertion, is really a misrepresentation of Allah's intent, in his words.


"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.
Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong."
Koran 60.8, 9




n.b.
"Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them:......Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith,"



So what is Allah actually conceding to, in Koran 60.8 ???

Very little, AND ONLY THIS....



Moslems may show kindness to 'unbelievers', if, and ONLY if,
1/  the 'unbelievers' willingly subjugate themselves in fromt of moslems, and if the 'unbelievers' do not resist moslem authority [over non-moslems],
AND,
2/ if 'unbelievers' accede that ISLAM is the superior religion/civil authority, and actively and publicly show to ISLAM, the respect which ISLAM and moslems 'deserve'.

Sounds almost reasonable, doesn't it ?

But let the slightest complaint come from the lips of the 'unbelievers' [who are under moslem governance], and once again the 'unbelievers' become the enemies of Allah, with all of the 'implications' [of violence] which that status brings.




Allah has declared it, unbelief, is a crime.

And rejecting moslem authority of [i.e. moslem enslavement of] 'unbelievers', is a crime.



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11







In the world, within the ummah [i.e. the worldwide community of moslems], ISLAM promotes moslem superiority and ISLAMIC supremacism.

ISLAM is not here, in the world, to be equal, with anyone.

It is apostasy and it is a great crime for a moslem to seek to ALLOW non-moslems to have equality [in law, in society] with moslems.

Moslems, MUST have a superior position in society.

That is what ISLAM is about, moslem supremacism.




"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29

"A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.065
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.080ii
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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #32 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 8:00pm:
Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:
Abu,

I have no argument with teh sentiment expressed in those ISLAMIC passages.

And imo, those ISLAMIC passages do express a commendable attitude towards neighbours.

THOUGH THE TERM 'NEIGHBOUR' IS NOWHERE DEFINED IN THOSE PASSAGES.


But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???

Who are the people that moslems may be kind towards, Abu ???


Your neighbour according to Islam is anyone who lives around you in any direction, even up to 40 houses away.

The Prophet was asked: “Who is a neighbour?” He answered: “Your neighbours are forty houses ahead of you and forty houses to your back, and forty houses to your right and forty houses to your left.”



What is the Christian definition of a neighbour?








"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?........"


read it all....
Luke 10:25-37

Basically, any stranger, is our 'neighbor'.

i.e.
Even complete strangers and 'unbelievers' are to be regarded as our 'neighbors' - according to God.




Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...


n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger:
for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...





+++


But not according to ISLAM....




"......the curse of Allah is on those without Faith."
Koran 2.089



"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98



"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. "
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51


"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28








"O ye who believe! Take not my enemies and yours as friends.....offering them (your) love,..."
Koran 60.1



Abu,

Do moslems [in moslem majority nations] typically behave like 'Samaritans', towards poor NON-MOSLEM guests who are sojourning in their countries ?


Google;
abuse of non-muslim guest workers, "muslim countries"



Abu,

Doesn't it make you PROUD to be a moslem, when you see how moslems typically treat travelers and poor sojourners, in moslem majority nations ???
/sarc off



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #33 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:55am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 8th, 2012 at 8:00pm:
Yadda wrote on Mar 7th, 2012 at 3:41pm:
Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29


No, you have lied. Nowhere does it state Muslims must NOT be kind to unbelievers. Please highlight the part where it states that.


The Qur'an in fact explicitly states that Allah does not forbid us being kind to those of the unbelievers who do not act aggressively towards us.







IMO, a more accurate rendition of your words would have read.....

"The Qur'an in fact explicitly states that Allah does not forbid us being kind to those of the unbelievers who do not act aggressively towards us - even though we moslems oppress unbelievers, in Sharia jurisdictions."



Oppression of  unbelievers, in Sharia jurisdictions ???

e.g.
Report: Pakistani women from religious minorities "are the victims of constant attempts at forced conversion or false charges of blasphemy"

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/03/report-pakistani-women-from-religious-minoriti...




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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falah
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #34 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 7:40pm
 
God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity”

[Quran, al-Mumtahanah v.8]
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Soren
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #35 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 7:56pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 5:38am:
All language is encoding, if the encoding is more efficient it does not detract from the sentiment expressed.

Only a complete git would think otherwise.



2 b o nt 2 b
Dat da Q

Iz it Nobla 2 safa
Da Slings n Aroz o' bich luk


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abu_rashid
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #36 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm
 
Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?........"[/color][/i]

read it all....
Luke 10:25-37


Should I then just disregard it as you did with my statements about Islam's teachings about neighbours?

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Basically, any stranger, is our 'neighbor'.

i.e.
Even complete strangers and 'unbelievers' are to be regarded as our 'neighbors' - according to God.


I think few Christians implement, or even believe this.

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...


Yeh we know, like the Midianites, Amelekites etc.

Yadda wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 11:42am:
Abu,

Do moslems [in moslem majority nations] typically behave like 'Samaritans', towards poor NON-MOSLEM guests who are sojourning in their countries ?


Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people. Interestingly I've met several non-Muslims (and people who are now Muslims, but were non-Muslims at the time) who travelled through the Middle East, visiting "Israel" also, and they all tell much the same story. Friendly, hospitable, welcoming Arabs, but arrogant, rude Jews.

Proof is in the pudding my friend, not in your empty words.
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Soren
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #37 - Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #38 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 3:21am
 
Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.


I'd agree with that Soren.  Not something I would choose to do.

Which almost brings us back on topic.
Said topic having been side-tracked by Abu and Yadda.  Altho, Yadda is definitely trying to keep it more relevant.
Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?   An incomplete question this one, so perhaps?-

Better to ask ..How does the Koran compare sex to rape.????  What is considered rape? ..and..
How does this apply, today, in real life??

You may not want to respond to the question,  Smiley Smiley   nevertheless, it has been asked, and I for one, would be very interested to have a  reasoned and knowledgable reply.


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abu_rashid
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #39 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:52am
 
Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.



I've spoken to both males and females who've said the same thing.

Never come across a Hindu who has travelled through the Middle East, but I have met some who worked in Saudi Arabia and said positive things about it, but I'm sure there's plenty who have not had such positive experiences, but same goes for Muslims. Many of the domestic servants who are abused in Saudi Arabia and gulf countries are Muslims, so the idea it's about mistreatment of non-Muslims by Muslims is nonsense.
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #40 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:11am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 9:52am:
Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans, Hindus or solo women of any hue.

A woman travelling alone in 'Muslim lands' is doomed.



I've spoken to both males and females who've said the same thing.

Never come across a Hindu who has travelled through the Middle East.



They don't dare, do they?

You are also, predictably, silent on the solo lady traveller.

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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #41 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am
 
Quote:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people. Interestingly I've met several non-Muslims (and people who are now Muslims, but were non-Muslims at the time) who travelled through the Middle East, visiting "Israel" also, and they all tell much the same story. Friendly, hospitable, welcoming Arabs, but arrogant, rude Jews


Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.

Quote:
Proof is in the pudding my friend, not in your empty words.


Is that what the Bali bombers were making? Tourist pudding?

Quote:
You may not want to respond to the question,      nevertheless, it has been asked, and I for one, would be very interested to have a  reasoned and knowledgable reply.


Watch Abu and Falah desperately try to change the topic. Falah even started another thread trying to point out how bad rape is under Islamic law, but again could not point to any substantial difference between the punishment for rape and consensual sex. Islam punishes sex - the rape bit is trivial.

Except of course that the victim gets let off for having sex if it is rape. Is that the only difference Abu?
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falah
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #42 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:34pm
 
Soren wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:37pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 9th, 2012 at 9:25pm:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people.



Yes, this is true. As a white European man, I can confirm this.

I am equally sure that it doesn't apply to Black Africans


I have travelled with a black African in the Middle East. I found that the Arabs there loved him. I am telling you Arabs loved this guy. Even at Saudi immigration he would talk to the guards and they would then give us preferential treatment and let us through ahead of everyone else.


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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #43 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Quote:
Every single non-Muslim I've ever met who travelled through a Muslim country said they loved it, and the most talked about aspect is always the hospitality of the people. Interestingly I've met several non-Muslims (and people who are now Muslims, but were non-Muslims at the time) who travelled through the Middle East, visiting "Israel" also, and they all tell much the same story. Friendly, hospitable, welcoming Arabs, but arrogant, rude Jews


Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?


You do realise that Bali is a Hindu country right?

Anyway, seeing as you brought that up we could ask victims of IRA bombings how they felt about that.

freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.


Women are not jailed in Saudi for being raped. A woman in Saudi cannot be jailed for non-permitted sex if she has been raped.






freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Quote:
Proof is in the pudding my friend, not in your empty words.


Is that what the Bali bombers were making? Tourist pudding?


Is it reasonable to judge all Muslim countries, and 1 billion Muslim based on the actions of half a dozen radicals in Bali?

If the US had not invaded Afghanistan, the Bali bombing probably wouldn't have occurred in the first place.

Shall we judge all Christians based on the actions of George Bush? Afterall, millions of Christians voted for Bush twice. Nobody voted for the Bali bombers.



freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Falah even started another thread trying to point out how bad rape is under Islamic law, but again could not point to any substantial difference between the punishment for rape and consensual sex. Islam punishes sex - the rape bit is trivial.


In Islam, there is a substantial difference the between the punishment for rape and and adultery. In cases of adultery, both parties are punished, in rape cases only the attacker is punished possibly with death.

In Islamic law, the rape victim is entitled to compensation from the attacker.

In Islamic law, the rapist can face extra punishment if he used a weapon.

It is deceptive for you to call adultery and fornication "consensual". Did God Almighty consent to this act? God created all human beings, he did not give permission for people to commit fornication or adultery.


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abu_rashid
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Re: does Islam equate sex and rape?
Reply #44 - Mar 10th, 2012 at 12:52pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 10th, 2012 at 10:24am:
Does that include the people who got blown up in Bali?

What about the woman who got raped in Saudi Arabia then got put in jail for having non-permitted sex? She wasn't even alone and she got screwed.


Do all the people murdered, raped, tortured etc. by Western soldiers count as part of the Christian approach to neighbourliness? Didn't think so. Only goes one way doesn't it? Your way.
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