Wouldn't it be a whole lot simpler if you just explained what you meant?

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 5:38pm:



So, moslems have entered into a 'similar' covenant, with God ?

Presumably, a similar [but new, and very different] covenant to the covenant, which God made in the OT Bible, with the Hebrew people ?

And thereby, in their own covenant with God, moslems now also replace the Hebrews, as God's people, presumably ?

OK.




But Abu,

Moslems make the claim that Jesus was a prophet of God.

Jesus explained to the Jews, that they should love God, and their neighbours.....

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.



Abu,

How do moslems interpret Jesus words in Matthew 22:36-40 ?

Or was Jesus wrong ?

Or are Christians today mis-representing Jesus words to mean something that Jesus did not intend ?

e.g.
Do moslems claim that Jesus meant that moslems can only

'love thy neighbour as thyself'

, if thy neighbour is a moslem ???

Because we now know, that that idea of enmity towards 'unbelievers' who reject Allah, is clearly what Allah projects, throughout the Koran.

Doesn't he ?


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,..."
Koran 9.29


In the Koran, Allah confirms, that even Christians are now, his enemies.

"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51




+++

Abu,

So, your position is that [post the early Christian era] moslems have entered into a[nother] covenant, with God,    .....to love God, and to love their moslem neighbours ?

But that warfare and enmity against unbelievers, in Allah's cause [i.e. to subjugate all men to Allah's worship], is sanctified, and required by Allah ?

Because Allah, requires in their covenant, that moslems must regard all non-moslems who resist moslem authority [because TRUE moslems are Allah's proxy upon earth], are enemies, of moslems, and Allah ?

n.b.
I like that idea too, that moslems take to themselves the right to interpret Allah's will, to the point of moslems becoming Allah's proxies on earth, to destroy those 'unbelievers', who resist the will of moslems [as proxies for Allah].

Dictionary;
proxy = = the authority to represent someone else, especially in voting.      a person authorized to act on behalf of another.






So, simply put, moslems in their covenant with Allah, must love Allah, and, all fellow moslems ?

But their covenant with Allah, requires that moslems must have hatred and enmity for those unbelievers, who resist Allah ?i+++
+++


Abu,

I would make another proposition, a very different proposition.

I would make the proposition that Jesus words were clear and unambiguous.....


Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38  This is the first and great commandment.
39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


And Abu,

If a moslem follow ISLAM's doctrines of hatred, towards their fellow man, then moslems are following a doctrine which is diametrically in opposition, to what God requires of us.

And i would i would argue that every good moslem, is;
1/ an oppressor of his fellow man, and,
2/ a hater God.

But that assumes that Jesus was accurate and true, when he said that the importance for us to love God, was much the same [in importance] as we loving our fellow man.




And those words of Jesus [above], about loving our fellow man, are in full alignment and agreement, with the doctrine of the OT covenant law of Moses.....

Once again;
THE GOD OF ISRAEL COMMANDED THE HEBREWS TO TREAT 'INFIDELS' ['unbelievers'] [i.e. ALL MEN, ALL MANKIND] WITH RESPECT AND WITH JUSTICE.


Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

n.b.
.....and thou shalt love him as thyself

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19

For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger:

for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18  But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

Yadda wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 12:00am:


Right... and Islam teaches this too.

Abu Shuraih Al-Khuza`I, May Allah be pleased with him, reported: The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him be kind to his neighbor; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him show hospitality to his guest; and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day, let him either speak good or remain silent".

Abdullah Ibn Musawir narrated: "I heard Ibn Abbas mention Ibn Az-Zubair saying that he was a miser, then he said: I heard the messenger of Allah say: He is not a believer who eats his fill whilst his neighbor beside him goes hungry"

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 5:42am:




Abu,

I have no argument with teh sentiment expressed in those ISLAMIC passages.

And imo, those ISLAMIC passages do express a commendable attitude towards neighbours.

THOUGH THE TERM 'NEIGHBOUR' IS NOWHERE DEFINED IN THOSE PASSAGES.


But i will ask,   .....who are defined, as the 'neighbours' of moslems, Abu ???

Who are the people that moslems may be kind towards, Abu ???





Abu,

Isn't is true, that Allah himself commands moslems, that moslems must NOT be kind to unbelievers....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29



And so, we come to an understanding.

That moslems are commanded to be kind to their 'neighbours'.

e.g.
Moslems are urged to be

"merciful among themselves"

.


And at the very same time, Allah commands moslems to be,

'hard against the disbelievers'

.






My argument is with your arguments and obfuscations Abu.

Clearly ISLAM sanctifies, and legitimises, a full-blown enmity and hatred, which ISLAM, and Allah, express and encourage, towards non-moslems [non-moslems who may be in every way, otherwise peaceable and faultless people].

And ISLAM mandates [obligates] moslem enmity and warfare against all non-moslems, who reject moslem authority, over their lives.







Abu,

Earlier [in another post, #9], you spoke about a 'new' covenant which moslems consider that they have, with Allah.

And here below, Mohammed verbalises the nature of that 'covenant' with Allah, ....which moslems have chosen to embrace....

"Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' ...."
hadithsunnah/bukhari #004.052.196





And here below, are more words [from Allah] in the Koran, describing the nature of your covenant with Allah......


"....Lo! Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith."
Koran 2.98


"....those who reject Allah have no protector."
Koran 47.008
v. 8-11


"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123


"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth,..."
Koran 9.29


"....take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends....
......he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them."
Koran 5.51






Q.
That is what Allah's covenant with moslems requires, isn't it Abu ?

falah wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 4:44pm:





Lying falah ???




Yadda said.....

Quote:



falah,

Who is lying ?

Are you claiming that the declarations by Allah, in the Koran [which state that moslems must not be friends with Allah's enemies], are false ?

Am i somehow 'misrepresenting' Allah's words, in the Koran falah ?


Dictionary;
misrepresent = = give a false or misleading account of.






falah,

Who was Allah refering to ????.....



"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them."
Koran 3.28






falah,

Who are the enemies, which Allah refers to [in Koran 60.1] ???




falah,

Doesn't Allah tell us, himself, who his enemies are [....see next Koran verse] ???




All 'unbelievers' who reject ISLAM, are Allah's enemies.

Isn't that true falah ???


Who is the liar falah ?


falah,

If you are going to claim that i am lying about what Allah says, then please point out, how i am lying.

Yadda wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 3:07pm:




falah,

Do all moslems so flagrantly disobey Allah's commands, as Mohammed apparently did ???




falah,

Is that why there are so few REAL moslems ???

Because it is clear that many of those people who claim to be moslems [i.e. those wicked false moslems, who slaughter other moslems, by murdering them, e.g. with bombs, in market places, and at funerals], are flagrantly disobeying Allah's commands, and therefore it is clear that they are only moslem 'impersonators' !!

Yes, those 'terrorist' moslems must be, moslem 'impersonators'.

And not REAL moslems.

Otherwise they would show kindness to Allah's enemies [i.e. they would show kindness to the 'wrong kind' of moslems], just like Mohammed did.

/sarc off

falah wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 12:47pm:


So it is true - the punishment for rape is the same as punishment for consensual sex. And where sex is permitted under Islam, rape is not even acknowledged as a crime.

That is, under Islamic law there is no distinction at all between rape and consensual sex.

The trouble that westerners often find themselves in with local authorities after getting raped in middle eastern coutnries is not some backwards tradition that Abu can blame on western interference, but is a close reflection of Islamic law.

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 8^th, 2012 at 8:00pm:



Abbreviated piety - how wonderful. Peace be upon him - but you can't be bothered to actually say it, so just abbreviate it.
Text it. Ps b n 'im. Or pbuh. It is very telling that muslims abbreviate their pieties.
These are only gestures, not actual feelings.