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The slavery - rape and pillage complex (Read 5257 times)
freediver
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The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Mar 4th, 2012 at 2:28pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:27am:
Falah, again... Why slavery at all?


It is no accident that Islam only permits the taking of slaves through conquest, because conquest is a cornerstone of Islam.

Contrary to Abu's insistence that Islam helped reduce slavery, the practice was still common among Muslims long after they had been on the losing end of every battle they could remember. It was only foreign interference that finally ended the practice.

To understand slavery (and in particular sex slavery) in Islam, it must be put in the context of Muhammed's rape and pillage days. The strategy behind it is unthinkable today.

Where the west has the 'military-industrial' complex, Islam has the slavery - rape and pillage complex. Consider the implications for Muhammed's empire (and the utter hypocrisy of any Muslim who complains about Israel today):

Quote:
1) It permits the complete displacement of conquered people.


Under Islam, you can also take the posessions (not that slaves have any need for them, as their every need is taken care of for them under Islam's 'slaves with dignity' policy). This leaves Muslims free to take the land as their own as well as the livestock, the houses etc without pesky locals getting upset about it. If the conquered locals behave they might be allowed to hang around and help till the soil, otherwise it's off to the other side of the empire to serve returning soldiers.

Quote:
2) If you can't beat the paganism out of them, breed it out.


The defeated farmer and his wife are not shipped off together. The farmer goes one way, while the wife (and any unlucky daughters) get raped by Muslims. They grow to love their new masters through Islam. The children of these glorious unions may not be shunned, but have to be brought up as good Muslims to complete the cycle. This is also part of Islam's 'slaves with dignity' policy.

Quote:
3) Slavery helps fuel the war machine.


Consider the plight of a young Islamic man. He lives in a society where men can have up to four wives. He has no chance of getting a wife himself before he is an old man. His father is not going to buy him one, as he spends his money supporting the two he already has and saving up for a third. There is of course nothing wrong with this situation - according to Abu most men do not deserve a wife.

Unless of course they go off and slaughter more pagans. Then he has a chance at not only a wife, but some serious property also. And if he gets killed, what is the loss? The army just sends a slave or two back to his father to help support the old man and his harem.

Quote:
4) From slave to raper and pillager in 3 easy steps.


Abu likes to tell us about the slave who became the master.

If you thought the young Islamic man had it bad, consider the farmer from example 2. As Abu pointed out, as part of the 'slaves with dignity' policy, he has a choice of free military training. This is not so he can rescue his wife and daughters from the Muslims raping them. This is so he can go and kill some other pagans and take their wife or daughter, house, sheep and anything else they own.

Of course, it is his free chocie and not everyone chooses that. After all, someone has to stay behind and clean the toilets for the old man and his harem. This is also part of Islam's 'slaves with dignity' policy.



It all works very well, until you start losing the wars. Then it all falls in a heap and Muslims become their own worst enemy.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #1 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 3:11pm
 
With the rapid rise of Arab fortunes, once united under Islam, and their astonishing and enduring success during the first few centuries, it's not hard to understand Arab association with that success and it's pre-ordination by a deity.

Christianity arrogated to itself the same claim.

Today it's democracy that claims Christianity's former role - though devoid of a deity and not a religion, despite American Christian fundamentalism. The crucial difference being that democracy's 'dogma' is written in pencil on paper, not chiseled into stone.

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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #2 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 3:31pm
 
It's not quite that simple. Democracy by itself means very little and it cannot even function properly without several other core values.

Consider also the contribution of capitalism and economic freedom, of freedom of the press and freedom of speach, of freedom of religion, of the women's rights movement, of education and the value placed on purely academic pursuits such as the pure sciences, etc. And don't forget the abolition of slavery and rape as tools of war and the displacement of conquered people. There would be a lot more grief in the world today if recent wars had been fought on Islamic standards. There would be no concept of 'nation building' as a way to prevent the same war happening again. Instead we would be completely dismantling the nation and shipping off the people as slaves and taking everything of value. It kind of puts 'no war for oil' into perspective.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #3 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 5:57pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 3:11pm:
With the rapid rise of Arab fortunes, once united under Islam, and their astonishing and enduring success during the first few centuries, it's not hard to understand Arab association with that success and it's pre-ordination by a deity.

Christianity arrogated to itself the same claim.

Today it's democracy that claims Christianity's former role - though devoid of a deity and not a religion, despite American Christian fundamentalism. The crucial difference being that democracy's 'dogma' is written in pencil on paper, not chiseled into stone.



Liberal Democracy deifies the human being; giving human beings the supposed right to legislate what God Almighty alone has the real right to legislate.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #4 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:19pm
 
falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 5:57pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 3:11pm:
With the rapid rise of Arab fortunes, once united under Islam, and their astonishing and enduring success during the first few centuries, it's not hard to understand Arab association with that success and it's pre-ordination by a deity.

Christianity arrogated to itself the same claim.

Today it's democracy that claims Christianity's former role - though devoid of a deity and not a religion, despite American Christian fundamentalism. The crucial difference being that democracy's 'dogma' is written in pencil on paper, not chiseled into stone.



Liberal Democracy deifies the human being; giving human beings the supposed right to legislate what God Almighty alone has the real right to legislate.

To use a metaphor to describe the esteem in which secular democrats hold the human being (I.e. deifying) is not the same as believing in a deity or its right to 'leglislate'. No sane secular democrat would argue that democratic legislation was anything other than the work of humans.

Slavery does not enhance the moral worth of its perpetrator and it's permissability via religious dogma is a cynical act of convenience (religio-legislation if you must) by its author(s) and potential or actual perpetrator(s) that has the likes of yourself and others scrambling to ameliorate its implications by rhetorically sugar coating the bitter pill - as, unlike democratic legislation, you are unable to extricate religious dogmatic outrages like the tolerance of slavery from the text.

Religious dogma remains fixed and over time even more immutable than any decree proclaimed by non-democratic (I.e. autocratic) rule.

In short You cannot answer the question, 'why slavery at all?' without deferring to 'immutable' text... Which is the core reason why religious dogma is potentially pernicious and contemptible.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #5 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:26pm
 
Deifying the right to legislate is not the same as deifying the legislators. If some religious idiot declared that only Gods may plant flowers, this does not mean that any sane person who plants flowers considers themself to be God. Muslims themselves have no problem interpetting God's word and figuring out what God would want in new situations. They just pretend it is God's will and not their own.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #6 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:32pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:26pm:
Deifying the right to legislate is not the same as deifying the legislators.

And even if the author(s) wrote as if they were 'deifying' the legislators (e.g. the American founding fathers), they would be referring to the esteem with which such legislators were held and not to actual deification.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #7 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:51pm
 
If it's agreed that slavery is gravely wrong, then its promotion of any kind (either actual or oblique) must be condemned and any reference to its promotion (either actual or oblique) should be expunged from all governing texts and replaced with the language of vehement and unequivocal condemnation.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #8 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 7:03pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:26pm:
Deifying the right to legislate is not the same as deifying the legislators. If some religious idiot declared that only Gods may plant flowers, this does not mean that any sane person who plants flowers considers themself to be God. Muslims themselves have no problem interpetting God's word and figuring out what God would want in new situations. They just pretend it is God's will and not their own.


If God tells a life for a life, and some government says "life in jail for murder", then that government has challenged the right of God to legislate. That government presumes itself to in fact be greater than God.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #9 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 7:50pm
 
So you would be challenging God if you tried to punish Muslims for raping slaves?
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #10 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 8:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 7:50pm:
So you would be challenging God if you tried to punish Muslims for raping slaves?


Freediver, I have mentioned before that rape is a punishable offence in Islam.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #11 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 8:14pm
 
As with almost everything else of consequence, 'rape' has a different meaning in Islam than in the rest of human understanding. There is no translation betweeen Islam and the rest of us since the values signified in Islam are not our values.

Rape in marriage is inconcievable for a Muslim. Put another way, no sex in a Muslim marriage can be rape.

Islam is a different planet.i
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #12 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 8:38pm
 
falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 7:03pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 6:26pm:
Deifying the right to legislate is not the same as deifying the legislators. If some religious idiot declared that only Gods may plant flowers, this does not mean that any sane person who plants flowers considers themself to be God. Muslims themselves have no problem interpetting God's word and figuring out what God would want in new situations. They just pretend it is God's will and not their own.


If God tells a life for a life, and some government says "life in jail for murder", then that government has challenged the right of God to legislate. That government presumes itself to in fact be greater than God.



God tells?
Where?
Did God write the Koran down? Did God write the interpretations of the Koran? You sound like as if you thought Mohammed and God were interchangable.

Tut tut, little man. Worshipping an Arab? Allah will frown.


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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #13 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 8:45pm
 

falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 8:02pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 7:50pm:
So you would be challenging God if you tried to punish Muslims for raping slaves?


Freediver, I have mentioned before that rape is a punishable offence in Islam.


Except of course when Islam pretends it is not rape.
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Re: The slavery - rape and pillage complex
Reply #14 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 9:25pm
 
Falah, in the wiki I wrote that rape is permissible in Islam in every situation where sex is permitted. Where sex is not permitted, rape and consensual sex are given the same punishment.

Is that correct?
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