Australian Politics Forum - difference between wives and sex slaves

Baronvonrort

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #45 - Mar 6^th, 2012 at 1:07pm

Frances wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 1:04pm:

falah wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 12:50pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 6:43am:

falah wrote on Mar 5^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.

And what religion do the northern warlords follow?

They follow their own whims and desires. Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance. They follow the dollar, and they are being bought off by the US.

The Taliban are the only faction in Afghanistan proven to be interested in implementing Islam.

But are they Muslims?

Yes, all the Mujahideen are muslims.

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Yadda

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #46 - Mar 6^th, 2012 at 4:10pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 1:04pm:

falah wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 12:50pm:

Frances wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 6:43am:

falah wrote on Mar 5^th, 2012 at 8:06pm:

The Taliban are from the South. It is the northern warlords (who are allied with the US and Australian governments) that are the child abusers.

And what religion do the northern warlords follow?

They follow their own whims and desires. Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance. They follow the dollar, and they are being bought off by the US.

The Taliban are the only faction in Afghanistan proven to be interested in implementing Islam.

But are they Muslims?

Yes, all the Mujahideen are muslims.

Yes, but will they be REAL moslems, tomorrow, if they murder a classroom full of girl students ???
/sarc off

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freediver

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #47 - Mar 6^th, 2012 at 6:21pm

Quote:

Not one of these warlords established Islamic law in any place when they had the chance.

Was ending education for girls and making women cover their face also part of Islamic law? Or did the Taliban not impliment Islamic law either, but their own whims, which happened to be even crueller?

Quote:

Islam prohibited kidnapping slaves and selling them 1400 years ago.

To encourage thwe whole rape and pillage thing. Nice. Why go out and kidnap slaves when you can make a war of it and expand the empire?

Quote:

Slavery in the Arabian Gulf was virtually non-existent when the laws were passed because the states were newly established, and had never fought in wars in which slaves could be captured.

So Muslims let their slaves go every time national boundaries change? You have some very odd ways of thinking Falah. Surely the presence or absence of slaves would tell you more about slavery than this absurd logic?

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falah

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #48 - Mar 7^th, 2012 at 11:36am

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 6^th, 2012 at 1:07pm:

Yes, all the Mujahideen are muslims.

Rubbish. The term "mujahideen" was co-opted by warlords for political reasons.

The term "mujahideen" is supposed to mean the "people who are fighting on behalf of an Islamic state".

To call those who are fighting against an Islamic state "mujahideen" is an oxymoron.

It is like Tony Abbott calling himself a "liberal", even though he is a dyed-in-the wool ultra-conservative

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Frances

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #49 - Mar 7^th, 2012 at 11:46am

falah wrote on Mar 7^th, 2012 at 11:36am:

It is like Tony Abbott calling himself a "liberal", even though he is a dyed-in-the wool ultra-conservative

I have never heard Tony Abbott calling himself a "liberal". I have heard Tony Abbott (and others) calling himself a "Liberal", which is what he is, but that is not the same thing.

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Sure God created man before woman. But then you always make a rough draft before the final masterpiece.

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freediver

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #50 - Mar 8^th, 2012 at 7:52pm

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To call those who are fighting against an Islamic state "mujahideen" is an oxymoron.

Abu does not believe it was an Islamic state. They did a lot of things that are pretty aweful even by Islamic standards. Like making women cover their faces and banning girls schools. And no I do not accept as your plausible your explanation that they did these things to liberate the women from the previous leaders.

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freediver

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #51 - Jul 19^th, 2013 at 6:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 2:49pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 2:30pm:

So what do you think concubine means Gandalf?

Umm... a woman who lives with a man, but who is not married to him?

And another one - apparently chopping a man's head off, stealing all his possessions and taking his wife home with you as a concubine implies no kind of coercion...

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 3:57pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 2:28pm:

What do you think concubine means Gandalf?

the freedictionary describes it pretty well I think. Nowhere does it mention rape. Concubines have been common throughout history, across cultures. Another term for them is "mistress". No one, except you, understands the term as anything to do with rape.

What is wrong with you?

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« Last Edit: Jul 19^th, 2013 at 6:24pm by freediver »

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freediver

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #52 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 8:37am

Gandalf and TC, you two are not really that naive are you?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 5:42pm:

True Colours wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 4:42pm:

voluntarily

No no no TC - don't you get it by now? Nothing is ever voluntary in islam, never ever on stilts.

True Colours wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 6:58pm:

Freediver thinks marriage is sex slavery. Cheesy

Can either of you two point out a substantive difference between marriage and sex slavery in the Islamic tradition?

True Colours wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:03am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:39pm:

There is no record in the Koran, where Allah states that captive women must give their consent to sex with their captors.

"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"

- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 8:20am:

Any idea what this is about TC?

abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4^th, 2012 at 10:20am:

Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations. She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.

Can you give an example of someone who was punished by Muhammed, or even admonished, for raping his female slave? While your at it, do you have any examples of spousal rape being punished?

In your quote, why did it finish with "if they desire chastity", rather than say, "if they don't want to have sex with you"?

Soren wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 8:26am:

True Colours wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:03am:

Yadda wrote on Jul 19^th, 2013 at 7:39pm:

There is no record in the Koran, where Allah states that captive women must give their consent to sex with their captors.

"...do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity"

- The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33

Hmmm...any verse outlawing rape of slaves in the Bible?

Er...

" But if anyone compels them (to prostitution), then after such compulsion, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to those women, i.e. He will forgive them because they have been forced to do this evil action unwillingly)."

The rest of The Quran, al-Noor, v. 33 which you completely accidentally forgot to include. Allah will forgive the women because they were forced. Not the Mohamedans who forced them, but the women who were forced.
Merciful-like, innit.

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freediver

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #53 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:02pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 1:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 1:05pm:

Would you mind clarifying the issue of raping these women, beyond naively assuming that concubinage means nothing more than cohabitation?

Would you mind clarifying the issue of raping these women, beyond the bigotry of assuming that concubinage always, no questions absolutely, means rape (at least in the case of muslims)?

There are numerous orders in islamic texts (both quran and hadeeth) forbidding forced sex on slave girls, as well as rulings by islamic scholars.

Do any of those orders, rulings etc involve any example of Muhammed punishing someone for raping their wife or concubine, or even beating them? Why do some Muslims believe that concubinage involves the same rights and responsibilities as marriage - eg it is the man's right to have sex and the woman's duty to service the man whenever he asks?

In the command that TC posted, can you explain the need for the qualifier?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #54 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:13pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Do any of those orders, rulings etc involve any example of Muhammed punishing someone for raping their wife or concubine, or even beating them?

Probably. Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.

Its got nothing to do with substantiating the claim that concubinage in islam must necessarily, absolutely, no question mean slave rape though.

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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #55 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:13pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 1:59pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 12:23pm:

Can you give an example of someone who was punished by Muhammed, or even admonished, for raping his female slave? While you're at it, do you have any examples of spousal rape being punished? Or even wife beating?

ummm ok FD, so coming up with examples of people being punished for raping slaves, isn't exactly proving or disproving that the command "do not compel your slave girls to sexual service, seeking the temporary pleasures of the world, if they desire chastity" exists does it?

You also assume that slave rape was actually going on. Maybe all the muslims then were obeying islam's commands in relation to slave rape.

Perhaps in the spirit of putting the burden of proof back on you (it is after all, your own bullshit claim), it might be prudent for you to come up with a single example of muslims raping their slaves and getting off scott free.

I can give you an example of a Muslim beating his wife until her skin was green with bruises. He got off scott free. It seems rape wasn't even considered worth mentioning. We did discuss a case recently of women captured in battle, where the best looking one was given to the soldier to prevented their escape as a reward, but then Muhammed took her off him for the purpose of trading her. The soldier made references to "not yet disrobing her", which to me sounds like a euphemism for rape.

I think it would be nothing short of naive to assume that after chopping their husbands heads off and taking the women home as slaves as well as all the possessions, that they would not force themselves upon them, given that it is specifically permitted and there is no punishment for rape in this context. It seems like a system designed to ensure that rape does happen, but at the same time allow leaders to wash their hands of it.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: difference between wives and sex slaves Reply #56 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:15pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:13pm: Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet. Can you explain the example of the woman being beaten until her skin was green, and Muhammed not taking any action?
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shockresist

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #57 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:22pm

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:13pm:

Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.

Can you explain the example of the woman being beaten until her skin was green, and Muhammed not taking any action?

Where did you read this story? Any links?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #58 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:02pm:

Do any of those orders, rulings etc involve any example of Muhammed punishing someone for raping their wife or concubine, or even beating them?

Probably. Discouraging the mistreatment of women was something of a theme for the prophet.

Is this how he discouraged them?

Quote:

The prophet said-

A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife
www.sunnah.com/abudawud/12/102

The Quran even says beating you wife is ok if you fear disobedience.
www.quran.com/4/34

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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shockresist

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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #59 - Jul 20^th, 2013 at 2:39pm

Any reasons why Australians beat there partners baronvomit?

•Women

1 in 5 women in Australia are abused in an intimate relationship at some point in their adult life. In addition, 1 in 5 women also experience some kind of sexual violence/assault (ABS, 2006).

•Children and Young People

1 in 4 children witness domestic and family violence in the home and 1 in 3 young people who have a boyfriend or girlfriend experience violence and abuse in that relationship (Indermaur, 2001).

In Australia, Canada, Israel, South Africa and the United
States, 40 to 70 per cent of female murder victims were
killed by their partners, according to the WHO.

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