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difference between wives and sex slaves (Read 20964 times)
abu_rashid
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #15 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:26am
 
Annie, indeed you can marry them, and obviously if you're going to have children with them, then marrying them would make a lot more sense, so your children can grow up with their parents married.

Actually "slavery" was often a great opportunity for people in the Islamic lands. It usually meant they'd be educated and fed and clothed well and would not need to worry about fending for themselves. In many cases it would also mean they'd have access to government positions and military training.

Even in states where slaves did not rule, they were often still in the upper classes, because of the fact Islam required equal treatment for slaves as with any other member of the household.

Obviously slavery is not the ideal circumstance, and Islam in all instances encourages the freeing of slaves and the reduction of the institution of it.
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #16 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:27am
 
Falah, again... Why slavery at all?
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #17 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:27am
 
Quote:
Islam limited the sources of slaves that existed before the beginning of Prophet Muhammed's mission to one way only; enslavement through war which was imposed on prisoners-of-war.


What about the children of slaves?

Quote:
People can only become slaves of Muslims by fighting against the Muslims. Slaves are for the soldiers who sacrificed their lives fighting to protect the Islamic state.


How can they be for dead people? Don't they go to the soldiers that survive?

Quote:
However, the ruler of the Islamic state can choose to free the captives of war for nothing or for a ransom, if that serves the interests of the Muslims.


Can you explain how this is an improvement on previous practices, other than making it more organised?

Quote:
But Islam brought two more options: unconditional release or ransom.


Why was release not an option beforehand? Are you suggesting that Islam introduced the concept of ransom?

Quote:
Letting him go free would give him the opportunity to spread wrongdoing and aggression against others and to oppose the truth and prevent it reaching people. So slavery prevents the malevolet people from continuing their malevolence in the future.


That is kind of you.

Quote:
certain types of spousal abuse


Can you elaborate please?

Quote:
1 – Guaranteeing them food and clothing like that of their masters.

Abu Dharr said: "The Apostle of God said: “They are your brothers whom God has put under your authority, so if God has put a person’s brother under his authority, let him feed him from what he eats and clothe him from what he wears, and let him not overburden him with work, and if he does overburden him with work, then let him help him.”"


How is this different to saying give them the leftovers and old clothes?

Quote:
2 – Preserving their dignity


Can you explain how to rape a slave in a dignified manner?

Quote:
Actually "slavery" was often a great opportunity for people in the Islamic lands. It usually meant they'd be educated and fed and clothed well and would not need to worry about fending for themselves. In many cases it would also mean they'd have access to government positions and military training.


This is the same rhetoric used the world over by slave owners. Nice of you to send them off to war for you also.
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #18 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:34am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:26am:
Actually "slavery" was often a great opportunity for people in the Islamic lands. It usually meant they'd be educated and fed and clothed well and would not need to worry about fending for themselves. In many cases it would also mean they'd have access to government positions and military training.

Gawd... I can see the advert now...

"Are you paying too much for your car insurance?

Are expenses getting you down?

Are the costs of your kids' upbringing just not worth the hassle?

Then you should try SLAVERY... Forget the bills, the expenses and the cost of those worthless kids and put them all in the hands of new SLAVEMASTER


abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:26am:
Obviously slavery is not the ideal circumstance, and Islam in all instances encourages the freeing of slaves and the reduction of the institution of it.

Maybe not ideal... But here's a deal... How about I kidnap your kids and put them to work in the back yard.... I'll pay them with a halal ice cream and set them free when they're done manicuring the lawn with nail-clippers... An even better deal... You can kidnap my lazy bastard of a son and put him to work in your back yard... That way we can beat the shite out of them for failing in their chores (after all, they're slaves) and still be kosher... oops, I mean, Halal... or whatever.

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Annie Anthrax
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #19 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:46am
 
Quote:
Obviously slavery is not the ideal circumstance, and Islam in all instances encourages the freeing of slaves and the reduction of the institution of it.



Yes. Sins are forgiven for the freeing of slaves.


I hate to be a Freediver here, but do you have a reference to a verse in the Quran that gives permission for sex with slaves. I can't find anything. The Quran has all the marriage requirements for Muslims and the treatment of slaves - surely it would mention something like this?

My husband says it's zina and therefore haram - that in Islam, sexual intercourse is only ever permissable within the confines of marriage and that if a man wants to have sex with a slave, he must marry her with the persmission of both the woman and her family.
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falah
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #20 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:49am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am:
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?


Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed.

In Islam, a concubine is like a wife, and the word for concubine in Arabic (sariyyah) comes from the word for marriage (sirr).

Abraham and Muhammed treated their concbines like wives.

The verse of the Quran saying that marrying slaves is allowed was revealed after the Islamic state was attacked by the pagans at the Battle of Uhud (interpretation of the meaning):

“...then marry women of your choice, two or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice”
[an-Nisaa' v.4]
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #21 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 11:54am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:20am:
Annie,

In the Islamic texts, women who are captives are considered to be part of the household, and the man has the same responsibilities to them as he has to his wives, and he therefore also has the same rights with her, which includes the permissibility of sexual relations.

She is basically like his wife, she is not merely a piece of property like in the Western concept of slavery, where people were treated like beasts of burden.





Lies, Abu.

OR, Abu lies.

Both true.




ISLAM respects women [.....apart from the fact that ISLAMIC holy texts state that women are mentally deficient]
/sarc off



+++
THE 'RIGHTS'(?) OF WOMEN IN ISLAM e.g. #1

The Koran [Allah] instructs moslems to beat disobedient wives, but ever so lightly.

And you know, don't you, that moslem men do beat their wives,...ever so lightly.

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Koran 4.034


Actually, the 'clarifying' insertion "(lightly)", DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE ARABIC, IN THE KORAN.

And that this 'insertion' is [has been] added in some English translations of the Koran - to mislead those readers of the English translation of the Koran, one can only assume.i
+++
THE 'RIGHTS'(?) OF WOMEN IN ISLAM e.g. #2

IMO, within ISLAM, women have the status of cattle or 'fields'.

The Koran [i.e. Allah] states that the woman, the wife, has the status of a field [of earth, 'tilth'].

And her husband may use her [plough her] as he wishes ['how ye will'].

And remember that every word in the Koran, has the sanctity of coming directly from Allah himself.

And remember also, that Allah is never wrong, mistaken.


"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe."
Koran 2.223


Dictionary;
tilth = = cultivation of land; tillage.i
+++
THE 'RIGHTS'(?) OF WOMEN IN ISLAM e.g. #3

Under ISLAMIC inheritance law.
Any daughter receives 1/2 the entitlement of any male heir.
e.g.
Where there is a son, and a daughter, to inherit an estate.
The estate is divided into 3 parts.
The son receives 2 parts.
The daughter receives 1 part.

"Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females: if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half...."
Koran 4.11



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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #22 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 12:04pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:46am:
I hate to be a Freediver here, but do you have a reference to a verse in the Quran that gives permission for sex with slaves. I can't find anything. The Quran has all the marriage requirements for Muslims and the treatment of slaves - surely it would mention something like this?

My husband says it's zina and therefore haram - that in Islam, sexual intercourse is only ever permissable within the confines of marriage and that if a man wants to have sex with a slave, he must marry her with the persmission of both the woman and her family.




Annie,


FROM THE KORAN,

Allah is talking about who moslem men may have SEX, and about with whom SEX is lawful.


"..Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess:..."
Koran 4.22-24

"O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee;..."
Koran 33.50

"women.....whom your right hands possess"
???

Q.
What does that mean ???

A.
war booty, i.e. female captives.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #23 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 12:31pm
 
falah wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 11:49am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Mar 4th, 2012 at 10:10am:
Falah, where do you get that sex slaves or concubines are halal in Islam?


Some of the prophets took concubines. Abraham had Hagar, and she bore him a son. The prophet's are the best examples of mankind. In certain circumstances, God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed.








falah said.....
".....The prophet's are the best examples of mankind......God has shown us through their example that taking concubines is allowed."


That is a lie.

It is a complete moslem FALSEHOOD.






e.g.
God's law specifically prohibited prophets and kings from taking many wives.

Because God knew, that in having many wives, their wives would turn their hearts away from God, and away from his law, and away from God's statutes and judgements.

God knew that the lusts of the flesh would turn even king David and king Solomon away from God's ways.


Deuteronomy 17:14
When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
15  Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.
16  But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.
17  Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.
18  And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:
19  And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:
20  That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel.



God's law specifically prohibited prophets and kings from taking many wives, AND YET, prophets like David and Solomon ignored God's law, and took to themselves many wives.




1 Kings 10:26
And Solomon gathered together chariots and horsemen: and he had a thousand and four hundred chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen, whom he bestowed in the cities for chariots, and with the king at Jerusalem.
27  And the king made silver to be in Jerusalem as stones, and cedars made he to be as the sycomore trees that are in the vale, for abundance.
28  And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king's merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
29  And a chariot came up and went out of Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and an horse for an hundred and fifty: and so for all the kings of the Hittites, and for the kings of Syria, did they bring them out by their means.

1 Kings 11:1
But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, and Hittites;
2  Of the nations concerning which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love.
And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.
4  For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, that his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as was the heart of David his father.
5  For Solomon went after Ashtoreth the goddess of the Zidonians, and after Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
And Solomon did evil in the sight of the LORD, and went not fully after the LORD, as did David his father.
7  Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.
8  And likewise did he for all his strange wives, which burnt incense and sacrificed unto their gods.


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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #24 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 1:21pm
 
All these historical references are interesting, but what exactly is the current position regarding women and sex in the Arab world, and what countries, if any, still have slaves?
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #25 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 2:00pm
 
Frances wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 1:21pm:
All these historical references are interesting, but what exactly is the current position regarding women and sex in the Arab world, and what countries, if any, still have slaves?


For women's rights Quran 4:34 sums them up.
Please read all english translations.
http://quran.com/4/34

Last year a Kuwaiti female -
Quote:
On spotting the unaccountably vacant niche in the local market for enslaved concubines,however,Salwa didnt hang around but seized the entrepreneurial initiative in a whole new way,putting forward a proposal to legalize sex slavery as a radical 2 in 1 way f satisfying the carnal appetites of Kuwait's bachelor population while tackling the moral corruption of prostitution that blights society.
Because,as we all know ,nothing says moral superiority quite like legalizing slavery.


She's not accepting just any old slaves though,hell no.Given the Russian state's longstanding and brutal oppression of the muslim chechen people,our righteous champion of justice is ready for handing out some old fashioned reciprocal brutal persecution,by enslaving only white Russian prisoners of war seized by Chechen fighters.


Source-http://www.kuwaittimes.net/read_news.php?newsid=MjEzMDczMjI0Mw

Here is a fawa on sex slaves they make no effort to discourage this-
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=182a6760abb8a132392414c4be26ef57

Google "sex slaves in Islam" there are over 6 million results.
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #26 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm
 
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #27 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:19pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:12pm:
I think pressure from Great Britain was largely responsible for finally outlawing slavery in the middle east, around the time of the final collapse of the empire. Obviously it took a lot longer than that to actually get rid of it and it is still common in many areas.



Where in the Middle East is slavery legal?
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #28 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:21pm
 
I don't think it is still legal anywhere. I think many of the oil barons still get away with it.
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: difference between wives and sex slaves
Reply #29 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:24pm
 
If there's still sexual slavery in Australia, it doesn't surprise me that rich Arabs are involved and responsible for similar circumstances in their countries.
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