Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 12
Send Topic Print
Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen (Read 9323 times)
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1330
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #30 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 2:57pm
 
1330836099]The article explained two mechanisms through which the fisherman in question may benefit.

Your explanations are not credible.

Why would the spots become more crowded if there is no discernable benefit? Are boat fishermen going to start abandoning their boats because they can't anchor up and fish in front of the most easily accessible shore based fishing spots?

Your whole premise to to discourage boat fishing and encourage fishing off the shore. Or maybe the boat fishermen will give up fishing all together if there are enough of your no go zones.

Most easily accesible shore based fishing spots are not overcrowded at all. The vast majority are empty because there are only a few undersize fish to be caught. [/quote]

A lot of them are shoulder to shoulder on the weekend near our cities. You can't even get near the water unless you get there ridiculously early. Eg the Kiama Blowhole and many of the rock platforms around Sydney.

PS: why do you think there are only a few undersized fish to be caught in these locations?

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 25970
I like fish
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #31 - Mar 4th, 2012 at 3:21pm
 
Can you explain how disagreeing with me on these points means I must be telling 'outright lies'? Are you really so sure that you are right and that you have already convinced me that you can think of no other explanation for why I have not changed my mind, other than that I am lying?

Quote:
Your whole premise to to discourage boat fishing and encourage fishing off the shore


No it isn't. The premise is to get boat fishermen to not anchor up and fish in front of these locations - that is, the premise is to get them to fish elsewhere, not to stop them using the boat.

Quote:
Or maybe the boat fishermen will give up fishing all together if there are enough of your no go zones.


Can I suggest you start with what I actually posted? It is kind of hypocritical of you to accuse me of lying when you start to make stuff up every time you fail to win an argument rationally.

Quote:
A lot of them are shoulder to shoulder on the weekend near our cities. You can't even get near the water unless you get there ridiculously early. Eg the Kiama Blowhole and many of the rock platforms around Sydney.


You appear to be confusing the easily accessible shore based fishing spots with the few that are still productive (relatively speaking - not that I think the Sydney rock shelves are very productive). There are a lot more that would not even occur to you to mention because you would not think of fishing there and hardly anyone does fish there, but they would be more productive under the proposals I put forward.
Back to top
 

Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger - Franklin P. Jones
WWW  
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1330
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #32 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 6:21am
 
1330838503]Can you explain how disagreeing with me on these points means I must be telling 'outright lies'? Are you really so sure that you are right and that you have already convinced me that you can think of no other explanation for why I have not changed my mind, other than that I am lying?

What else can I say when I have presented ample and compelling evidence and you don't counter it except by repeating your lies.

Quote:
Your whole premise to to discourage boat fishing and encourage fishing off the shore


No it isn't. The premise is to get boat fishermen to not anchor up and fish in front of these locations - that is, the premise is to get them to fish elsewhere, not to stop them using the boat.

It's still a discouragement, having to fish somewhwere less safe, stick to a hard to comply with zoning.

Quote:
Or maybe the boat fishermen will give up fishing all together if there are enough of your no go zones.


Can I suggest you start with what I actually posted? It is kind of hypocritical of you to accuse me of lying when you start to make stuff up every time you fail to win an argument rationally.

It's actually happening with existing marine parks, anglers avoid areas with them or the participation rate declines.

Quote:
A lot of them are shoulder to shoulder on the weekend near our cities. You can't even get near the water unless you get there ridiculously early. Eg the Kiama Blowhole and many of the rock platforms around Sydney.


You appear to be confusing the easily accessible shore based fishing spots with the few that are still productive (relatively speaking - not that I think the Sydney rock shelves are very productive).

Ingnorance - the Sydney rocks are very productive, what makes you think otherwise?

There are a lot more that would not even occur to you to mention because you would not think of fishing there and hardly anyone does fish there, but they would be more productive under the proposals I put forward. [/quote]

Have you thought there might be a reason why they are not productive, eg lack of natural fish holding features, food sources etc? With no large spillover effect how on earth will they become more productive?

PS: you haven't though about catchability either.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 25970
I like fish
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #33 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 8:43am
 
Quote:
It's still a discouragement, having to fish somewhwere less safe


Again, you should start with what I actually say, which is the opposite. It would leave the safer spots open. I have actually made a request to the authorities for a plan change, based on this justification, and seen zoning regulations changed during the public feedback phase for the benefit of boat fishermen.

Quote:
anglers avoid areas with them


Because it is illegal to fish there?

Quote:
or the participation rate declines


Do you have any evidence of that?

Quote:
Ingnorance - the Sydney rocks are very productive, what makes you think otherwise?


Of course they are - relatively speaking. Hence the crowds. But relative to what?

Quote:
Have you thought there might be a reason why they are not productive, eg lack of natural fish holding features, food sources etc?


Of course. But to be honest you have to admit that overfishing plays a massive part in that, and reducing the impact of overfishing will make it more productive. The article makes it quite clear that it will not be magic and they won't be as productive as more remote areas, but it will be an improvement.

Quote:
PS: you haven't though about catchability either.


Thanks for the suggestion. My proposal will significantly increase catchability for shore based fishing, because they will be fishing adjacent to an area where fishing is excluded and the fish are less likely to elarn to avoid being caught. I will add that to the article.
Back to top
 

Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger - Franklin P. Jones
WWW  
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 25970
I like fish
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #34 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 9:00am
 
Thanks for your help PJ. I have removed the reference to fisheries management authorities and added the following paragraph below principle 3:

An additional mechanism also helps improve catches for shore based fishermen. By fishing adjacent to an area that is unfished, marine parks can improve the catchability of those fish that do spill over, as they are less likely to learn to avoid being caught. There are at least four separate mechanisms through which shore based fishermen will benefit from a fisheries management approach to marine parks: the spillover effect, which increases total catches, directing the benefits of spillover to shore based anglers, direct transfer of the resource from boat based to shore based fishermen (even if you exclude the benefits from the spillover effect), and increasing the catchability for shore based fishermen (and boat fishermen).
Back to top
 

Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger - Franklin P. Jones
WWW  
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1330
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #35 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:33pm
 
]Thanks for your help PJ. I have removed the reference to fisheries management authorities

While you at it you should remove your statement that the main recommendation of the audit panel was for more marine parks. 

and added the following paragraph below principle 3:

An additional mechanism also helps improve catches for shore based fishermen. By fishing adjacent to an area that is unfished, marine parks can improve the catchability of those fish that do spill over, as they are less likely to learn to avoid being caught.

You don't know if there will be any appreachable spillover let alone it will affect catchability.

There are at least four separate mechanisms through which shore based fishermen will benefit from a fisheries management approach to marine parks: the spillover effect, which increases total catches, directing the benefits of spillover to shore based anglers,

Not likely. Also with coastal examples very improbable as a lot of species tend to hug the shore. 

direct transfer of the resource from boat based to shore based fishermen (even if you exclude the benefits from the spillover effect),

I don't follow that - the closed ground are off limits to all fishermen. PS what is the point of favouring shore based fishermen over boat fishermen?[i]

and increasing the catchability for shore based fishermen (and boat fishermen).

[i]Did you put as much thought into your other theories? I mention catchability and the next thing it is a tenent of marine parks.

PS: is it really a bad thing that fish wise up to angling methods? It makes angling somewhat self limiting.

Also you have made no mention of the recreational fishing havens around our metro areas where anglers both shore and boat based are well looked after (aided by the stocking programs of hatchery bred fish).   

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 25970
I like fish
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #36 - Mar 5th, 2012 at 7:52pm
 
Quote:
PS what is the point of favouring shore based fishermen over boat fishermen?


It reduces the need for a boat and helps out those fishermen who simply cannot afford one, or do not go fishing often enough to justify the expense.

Quote:
PS: is it really a bad thing that fish wise up to angling methods? It makes angling somewhat self limiting.


If fisheries management has inherent problems with resilience then this will partly make up for it. I have seen heavily fished areas where there are plenty of bream around but they do not go near most baits. They also tend to all be undersize so obviously someone is getting a few.

However, it would be better to have a system that is inherently resilient but where the fish don't learn to avoid capture. Otherwise you risk the situation where there are plenty of fish around but none bite, even though it would not undermine stocks if they were captured. The worst possible outcome would be a river full of dwarf bream that don't take bait and never reach minimum size.

Quote:
Did you put as much thought into your other theories? I mention catchability and the next thing it is a tenent of marine parks.


I think it has come up before. I just didn't think of it when putting the article together. Again, thanks for reminding me. This is one clear advantage of my proposals, as it is the fish in the most easily accessible locations that are most likely to learn to avoid being caught.
Back to top
 

Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger - Franklin P. Jones
WWW  
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1330
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #37 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:08pm
 
] Quote:
PS what is the point of favouring shore based fishermen over boat fishermen?


It reduces the need for a boat and helps out those fishermen who simply cannot afford one, or do not go fishing often enough to justify the expense.

Sometimes it's easier to fish from a boat eg lack of safe, uncrowded landbased spots, people with limited mobility. PS: where is the equity in a major rejig of fisheries management to 'benefit' people who can't be bothered to fish more than occasionally?

Quote:
PS: is it really a bad thing that fish wise up to angling methods? It makes angling somewhat self limiting.


If fisheries management has inherent problems with resilience then this will partly make up for it.

Can you point to a lack of resilience? If anything experience has shown that NSW fish stocks have a great deal of resilence with respect to fishing pressure.

I have seen heavily fished areas where there are plenty of bream around but they do not go near most baits. They also tend to all be undersize so obviously someone is getting a few.

I haven't heard anyone suggest that bream are overfished. Also as I mentioned the areas with the most heavy recreational fish pressure are also rec fishing havens and I can assure you that there are plenty of big bream in places like Port Hacking, Botany Bay and the Georges River. 

However, it would be better to have a system that is inherently resilient but where the fish don't learn to avoid capture. Otherwise you risk the situation where there are plenty of fish around but none bite, even though it would not undermine stocks if they were captured. The worst possible outcome would be a river full of dwarf bream that don't take bait and never reach minimum size.

That's a contradiction - if they never take a bait then how can they be overfished?

Quote:
Did you put as much thought into your other theories? I mention catchability and the next thing it is a tenent of marine parks.


I think it has come up before.

Not as a marine park benefit. You just made that up on the spot.

I just didn't think of it when putting the article together. Again, thanks for reminding me. This is one clear advantage of my proposals, as it is the fish in the most easily accessible locations that are most likely to learn to avoid being caught.

So your making fish harder to be caught (no fishing zones) then make them easier to be caught (catchability) - is that not a zero sum game?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 25970
I like fish
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #38 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:34pm
 
PJ, do you agree with this principle: where no take zones are implimented, they should avoid restricting land based fishing?
Back to top
 

Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger - Franklin P. Jones
WWW  
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1330
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #39 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 6:34pm:
PJ, do you agree with this principle: where no take zones are implimented, they should avoid restricting land based fishing?


They are often done this way - I strongly supect so as to merely not upset the punters (ie voters).
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 25970
I like fish
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #40 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:30pm
 
Do you agree with it?
Back to top
 

Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger - Franklin P. Jones
WWW  
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1330
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #41 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:35pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:30pm:
Do you agree with it?


No.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
freediver
Gold Member
*****
Offline


www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 25970
I like fish
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #42 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:39pm
 
So you think shore based fishing spots should be included in NTZs?
Back to top
 

Honest criticism is hard to take, particularly from a relative, a friend, an acquaintance, or a stranger - Franklin P. Jones
WWW  
IP Logged
 
pjb05
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 1330
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #43 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:45pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 6th, 2012 at 7:39pm:
So you think shore based fishing spots should be included in NTZs?


Nice one FD, you have followed one loaded question with another loaded question. Don't you realise by now I am not enthused by any NTZ?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jasignature
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 3925
Scam Syd-i-knee
Gender: male
Re: Marine Parks mean simpler rules for fishermen
Reply #44 - Mar 6th, 2012 at 8:36pm
 
Hmm good question: Land based fishing in No Take Zones. Usually I wouldn't think it too much of an impact, even catching 150kg Marlin off Point Perpendicular at Jervis Bay.
But.
If you go to many beaches nowadays and other hot 'shore fishing' spots. Most guys, especially on the beaches, have anything up to x10 Rods going each. Shocked
Back to top
 

U.nited&&F.ederation of&&O.ceania&&...for all Austr-Aliens
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 ... 12
Send Topic Print