Australian Politics Forum - Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights

Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #30 - Feb 10^th, 2012 at 3:47pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 9^th, 2012 at 7:32pm:

Actually the majority of Persians were not Shi'a in the early days of Islam. It was only later under the Buwayhi and Safawi empires that they became Shi'a and enforced Shi'ism on others.

Falah said the shia are not muslims.

Can you answer the question on whether you think Ibn Sina is a muslim?
If you say he is a muslim then you are contradicting many Islamic scholars who say he was an atheist and kafir.

Is this the empire you are talking about Abu you should check out the dates...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buwayhid_dynasty

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #31 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:22am

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

Falah said the shia are not muslims.

Can you answer the question on whether you think Ibn Sina is a muslim?

I didn't personally get to meet him to be able to say with any certainty. But as far as I know, it is not certain that he was shi'a, and most certainly never proclaimed to be an atheist. This is something post-Renaissance Europeans invented because they couldn't handle that one of their most inspirational figures was a Muslim.

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

Is this the empire you are talking about Abu you should check out the dates...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buwayhid_dynasty

Why do I need to check my dates? Where did I state anything about any particular timeframe?

I again assert, that prior to these two empires, most Persians were from mainstream/orthodox Islam, not Shi'a sects.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #32 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 11:24am

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:22am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 10^th, 2012 at 3:47pm:

Falah said the shia are not muslims.

Can you answer the question on whether you think Ibn Sina is a muslim?

I didn't personally get to meet him to be able to say with any certainty. But as far as I know, it is not certain that he was shi'a, and most certainly never proclaimed to be an atheist. This is something post-Renaissance Europeans invented because they couldn't handle that one of their most inspirational figures was a Muslim.

How can Ibn Sina be a muslim when many Islamic scholars declared he was a kafir and atheist?

Can muslims ever get their story straight on anything?

Quote:

Ibn Sina (Avicenna) was accused of beinga kafir and atheist because of his statements about the antiquity of the world,his rejection of the hereafter and other atheist theories.
Scholars that stated Ibn Sina was an atheist include-
Al Ghazali, Ibn Taymiyah,Ibn Al Qayim and Al Dhahbi along with Al Huwaini
Source-http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=877...

Why should we believe you over the 5 Islamic scholars who declared Ibn Sina is an atheist?

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« Last Edit: Feb 13^th, 2012 at 12:18pm by Baronvonrort »

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abu_rashid

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #33 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 6:48pm

baron,

As far as I'm aware he was never tried for apostasy or for atheism, and was never said to be a Shi'a either. He lived in the Samaanid emirate which was a mainstream orthodox Muslim entity that was nominally part of the Abbasid state.

What people said after his time is irrelevant.

Either way, he never once claimed to be an atheist, and he begun all his books with the basmalah, so you are proved to be nothing but a liar.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #34 - Feb 13^th, 2012 at 7:52pm

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 13^th, 2012 at 6:48pm:

baron,

As far as I'm aware he was never tried for apostasy or for atheism, and was never said to be a Shi'a either.

What people said after his time is irrelevant.

Either way, he never once claimed to be an atheist,

You would have to be stupid to admit to being an apostate in a place where people are executed for apostasy so why would he open his mouth when it could have him killed.

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights Reply #35 - Feb 14^th, 2012 at 5:45am By your same reasoning he might have been a Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Jain, Jedi or Communist, but just never admitted it. You cannot assert someone adheres to a certain belief merely based on the fact he was accused of it by later generations, and you claim he couldn't admit it if he was.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #36 - Feb 14^th, 2012 at 7:00pm

We have 5 Islamic scholars saying Ibn Sina was an atheist and kafir so lets check them out.

Al Ghazali was named as one of the scholars who said Ibn Sina was an atheist he wrote a book that was very critical of Ibn Sina it was titled The incoherance of the philosophers
Quote:

The tahafut is organised into twenty chapters in which Al Ghazali attempts to refute Avicenna's (Ibn Sina) doctrines.
Source-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers

Al Ghazali is a well known scholar what is your opinion of him Abu/Falah/ Lestat?

I have heard some muslims claiming Sufi are not muslims.

Are the Sufi considered muslim or are they like those deviant twelver shia?

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freediver

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #37 - Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 1:09pm:

Who made up the Universal Declaration of human rights? God or imperfect humans? Who has the right to make laws the Creator or the Created?

Does the Bible conform to the Universal Declaration of human rights?

What is the punishment for apostasy in the Bible?

Falah, do you reject the notion of 'no compulsion in religion'? Why do you always point the finger at some other religious book when people criticise your own beliefs? If Islam is wrong about this, finding something similar in the Bible is not going to make it any less wrong, is it?

Quote:

ahh yes, and your atheist brothers, Stalin, Chairman Mao, and Pol Pot, also pretended to be concerned with human rights - even when they killed millions

Falah to, why is it so hard for you to discuss Islam? We are talking about something you seem to personally believe. Are you suggesting that every atheist has to answer for these dictators before you will give a straight answer on what you actually believe?

Quote:

Dress it up any way you want, but they were atheist leaders.

So what is your point Falah? If they were also red-headed leaders, would this render you incapable of giving a straight answer to redheads? Please tell us what people you can give a striaght answer to so that they can pose the questions.

Quote:

For the Twelver Shi-ite sect, found mostly in Iran, it is only the government and leaders who are considered to be outside of Islam. The ordinary person on the street is technically considered muslim unless he utters the heresies of his leaders.

That is kind of Naive of you.

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falah

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #38 - Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:37pm

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

falah wrote on Feb 6^th, 2012 at 1:09pm:

Who made up the Universal Declaration of human rights? God or imperfect humans? Who has the right to make laws the Creator or the Created?

Does the Bible conform to the Universal Declaration of human rights?

What is the punishment for apostasy in the Bible?

Falah, do you reject the notion of 'no compulsion in religion'?

Nobody should be forced to join any religion. Of course, atheist leaders have shown that they believe nobody should be allowed to have any religion.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

Why do you always point the finger at some other religious book when people criticise your own beliefs?

Because it is odd for people living in a Christian country to single out something in Islam which is also found in the Christian Bible.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

If Islam is wrong about this, finding something similar in the Bible is not going to make it any less wrong, is it?

Islam is not wrong. There are just some parts of the Bible which are right.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

Quote:

ahh yes, and your atheist brothers, Stalin, Chairman Mao, and Pol Pot, also pretended to be concerned with human rights - even when they killed millions

Falah to, why is it so hard for you to discuss Islam?

I believe I have been expending a great deal of time discussing Islam on this board due to the Zionist Islamophobes here writing lies and distortions on Ozpolitic to promote their anti-Islam agenda.

Why is it so difficult for you to discuss the millions murdered, raped, tortured and denied freedom of religion by atheists?

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

We are talking about something you seem to personally believe.

Yes, I believe in Islam.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

Are you suggesting that every atheist has to answer for these dictators before you will give a straight answer on what you actually believe?

You claim to be an atheist, so I would draw your attention to the final conclusion of atheism.

History has shown us that if atheists gain power they will slaughter millions. They will starve millions. They will prevent millions from freedom of religion.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 8:15am:

Quote:

For the Twelver Shi-ite sect, found mostly in Iran, it is only the government and leaders who are considered to be outside of Islam. The ordinary person on the street is technically considered muslim unless he utters the heresies of his leaders.

That is kind of Naive of you.

It is not my opinion, that is what the scholars of Islam say.

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« Last Edit: Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:54pm by falah »

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freediver

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #39 - Feb 17^th, 2012 at 11:01pm

Quote:

Because it is odd for people living in a Christian country to single out something in Islam which is also found in the Christian Bible.

Perhaps you have not noticed Falah, but our society is equally critical of all religious people who want to stone people to death for apostasy. It's just that Muslims are the only people I know carrying on with this nonsense.

Quote:

Islam is not wrong. There are just some parts of the Bible which are right.

I see. So you are not actually criticising Christianity, you are pointing out those areas where it is as righteous as Islam? You will have to forgive me for assuming you were opposed to killing babies.

Quote:

I believe I have been expending a great deal of time discussing Islam on this board due to the Zionist Islamophobes here writing lies and distortions on Ozpolitic to promote their anti-Islam agenda.

It appears to me that you prefer to discuss other religions and deflect on the criticisims people make of Islam. You turn every discussion of Islam into a childish game of list the attoricities committed by the non-Muslim of choice.

Quote:

Why is it so difficult for you to discuss the millions murdered, raped, tortured and denied freedom of religion by atheists?

It is not hard. I just don't use them to change the topic whenever someone asks me difficult questions about my political ideology. I am not afraid to explain and promote it.

Quote:

You claim to be an atheist

I did not claim that.

Quote:

so I would draw your attention to the final conclusion of atheism

We are kind enough to let Muslims tell us about Islam. Why are you unable to return the courtesy to atheists?

Quote:

History has shown us that if atheists gain power they will slaughter millions.

History has shown us that if people gain power they have the potential to slaughter millions, regardless of political or religious affiliation. This line of reasoning is about as immature as it is possible to get in politics.

Quote:

They will prevent millions from freedom of religion

Can you explain to us what the consequences of Islam's rules for apostasy are for freedom of religion?

Quote:

It is not my opinion, that is what the scholars of Islam say.

Oops. You are right, it is kind of naive of them. It was wrong for me to criticise you for mindlessly accepting what Islamic leaders say, just as it is wrong for you to do the same to Shites. All is forgiven, so long as you repent....

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« Last Edit: Feb 17^th, 2012 at 11:10pm by freediver »

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #40 - Feb 18^th, 2012 at 8:33am

falah wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 5:37pm:

Of course, atheist leaders have shown that they believe nobody should be allowed to have any religion.

Islam is not wrong.

ahh yes, and your communist brothers, Stalin, Chairman Mao, and Pol Pot, also pretended to be concerned with human rights -
I believe I have been expending a great deal of time discussing Islam on this board due to the Islamophobes

Why is it so difficult for you to discuss the millions murdered, raped, tortured and denied freedom of religion by communists?

You claim to be an atheist, so I would draw your attention to the final conclusion of atheism.

History has shown us that if atheists gain power they will slaughter millions. They will starve millions. They will prevent millions from freedom of religion.

John Cutin-John Gorton-Gough Whitlam-Bob Hawke-Julia Gillard are all atheist Prime Ministers of Australia what religions did they outlaw falah?

If atheists dont allow religion then why did these Prime ministers allow it?

You are delusional falah please look up delusional in a dictionary.

If you bothered to read the Universal declaration of human rights you might find it would violate human rights to outlaw religion.

Why do you lie about this to smear atheists Falah do you realise how delusional you are to even believe this could be possible?

Please read the UDHR and tell me how it would be possible for atheists to violate your right to be delusional.
http://www.un.org/events/humanrights/2007/hrphotos/declaration%20_eng.pdf

Islamophobia is a word that is technically and logically incorrect which epitomises the stupidity of Islam.
Islam is an ideology a set of beliefs,it is a fallacy that one can be phobic of an ideology.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #41 - Feb 18^th, 2012 at 8:46am

Baronvonrort wrote on Feb 14^th, 2012 at 7:00pm:

We have 5 Islamic scholars saying Ibn Sina was an atheist and kafir so lets check them out.

Al Ghazali was named as one of the scholars who said Ibn Sina was an atheist he wrote a book that was very critical of Ibn Sina it was titled The incoherance of the philosophers
Quote:

The tahafut is organised into twenty chapters in which Al Ghazali attempts to refute Avicenna's (Ibn Sina) doctrines.
Source-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Incoherence_of_the_Philosophers

Al Ghazali is a well known scholar what is your opinion of him Abu/Falah/ Lestat?

I have heard some muslims claiming Sufi are not muslims.

Are the Sufi considered muslim or are they like those deviant twelver shia?

Quote:

Al Ghazali has sometimes been referred to by historians as the single most influential muslim after Prophet Mohammad.Others have citied his movement from science to faith as a detriment to the Islamic scientific progress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ghazali

Al Ghazali called Ibn Sina a atheist and kafir,kafir leaves no doubt as to his status as a muslim.

Falah-Abu-Lestat, What is your opinion of Al Ghazali?

Are the sufi considered muslims by you?

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falah

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Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights
Reply #42 - Feb 18^th, 2012 at 12:32pm

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 11:01pm:

Quote:

[quote]Islam is not wrong. There are just some parts of the Bible which are right.

I see. So you are not actually criticising Christianity, you are pointing out those areas where it is as righteous as Islam? You will have to forgive me for assuming you were opposed to killing babies.

I said some parts of the Bible, not all. Islam is the criterion I use to judge. Islam does not permit the killing of babies - unlike Christianity/Judaism.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 11:01pm:

Quote:

[quote]I believe I have been expending a great deal of time discussing Islam on this board due to the Zionist Islamophobes here writing lies and distortions on Ozpolitic to promote their anti-Islam agenda.

It appears to me that you prefer to discuss other religions and deflect on the criticisims people make of Islam. You turn every discussion of Islam into a childish game of list the attoricities committed by the non-Muslim of choice.

We have to look at thing in context. You like to look at thing in isolation, I don't.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 11:01pm:

Quote:

[quote]Why is it so difficult for you to discuss the millions murdered, raped, tortured and denied freedom of religion by atheists?

It is not hard. I just don't use them to change the topic whenever someone asks me difficult questions about my political ideology. I am not afraid to explain and promote it.

It is called context. people with your narrow world-view don't understand context.

freediver wrote on Feb 17^th, 2012 at 11:01pm:

Quote:

History has shown us that if atheists gain power they will slaughter millions.

History has shown us that if people gain power they have the potential to slaughter millions, regardless of political or religious affiliation. This line of reasoning is about as immature as it is possible to get in politics.

The only people in history who have gotten around to slaughtering millions of people outside of war time are Atheists.

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47355 At my desk.	Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights Reply #43 - Feb 18^th, 2012 at 12:45pm So you were actually deflecting, and any time someone asks you about Islam you prefer to put the question in context rather than answering it?
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falah Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3162	Re: Islam vs Universal Declaration of human rights Reply #44 - Feb 18^th, 2012 at 10:03pm
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