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Another carbon tax campaign (Read 29915 times)
longweekend58
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #15 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 4:53pm
 
cods wrote on Jan 1st, 2012 at 5:45pm:
watched a show on Saudi Arabia on TV... it was very interesting... just how every Saudi has the right to be heard.. and they have the right to be heard even by the King..

a damn sight more than we do.


you do yourself great harm by talking about the Saudi's 'rights'. like the total absence of right for women to be in public without a male family member. her inability to gt an education or a drivers licence. oh and lets not forget the right to be stoned for adultery - if you are a woman of course.

when people talk of 'rights' Saudi Arabia doesnt get a mention. There is good reason for this.
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cods
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #16 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 5:09pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 4:53pm:
cods wrote on Jan 1st, 2012 at 5:45pm:
watched a show on Saudi Arabia on TV... it was very interesting... just how every Saudi has the right to be heard.. and they have the right to be heard even by the King..

a damn sight more than we do.


you do yourself great harm by talking about the Saudi's 'rights'. like the total absence of right for women to be in public without a male family member. her inability to gt an education or a drivers licence. oh and lets not forget the right to be stoned for adultery - if you are a woman of course.

when people talk of 'rights' Saudi Arabia doesnt get a mention. There is good reason for this.




well all right longy but you didnt see the show...the person they were documenting was high up... and he said what the west doesnt see is.. for instance cutting off a hand..nasty I know he said in all his years he hadnt seen it enacted... first of the the person has to steal 3 times..then it goes through a long court process. and as he said it hasnt happened in his lifetime..

women he said would of course be driving cars... but like most things.. it isnt high up on their list of wants..its sounds shocking to us but its the way they are..the burqa is another thing its their choice..things do change over there albeit slowly.

but they dont wish to live like Westerners..its their choice..

as for all the no education for women well thats all wrong as well..

I am not sticking up for them but really lets give them their due, they are changing...and if woman rattle their chains hard enough then they will get change..its up to them..
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cods
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #17 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 5:10pm
 
BTW what harm have I done to myself?????

is it illegal now to talk about a program on TV?
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longweekend58
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #18 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 5:19pm
 
cods wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 5:09pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 4:53pm:
cods wrote on Jan 1st, 2012 at 5:45pm:
watched a show on Saudi Arabia on TV... it was very interesting... just how every Saudi has the right to be heard.. and they have the right to be heard even by the King..

a damn sight more than we do.


you do yourself great harm by talking about the Saudi's 'rights'. like the total absence of right for women to be in public without a male family member. her inability to gt an education or a drivers licence. oh and lets not forget the right to be stoned for adultery - if you are a woman of course.

when people talk of 'rights' Saudi Arabia doesnt get a mention. There is good reason for this.




well all right longy but you didnt see the show...the person they were documenting was high up... and he said what the west doesnt see is.. for instance cutting off a hand..nasty I know he said in all his years he hadnt seen it enacted... first of the the person has to steal 3 times..then it goes through a long court process. and as he said it hasnt happened in his lifetime..

women he said would of course be driving cars... but like most things.. it isnt high up on their list of wants..its sounds shocking to us but its the way they are..the burqa is another thing its their choice..things do change over there albeit slowly.

but they dont wish to live like Westerners..its their choice..

as for all the no education for women well thats all wrong as well..

I am not sticking up for them but really lets give them their due, they are changing...and if woman rattle their chains hard enough then they will get change..its up to them..


the point is that you said about how good it is that they can go to the king. Firstly, it isnt anywhere near as simple as you suggest and it isnt possible at all if you are a woman and virtually impossible unless you ahve the right connections and of course you arent allowed to say what you want - only what you are allowed to say. So this 'right of appeal' is worthless. Our rights of appeal to the courts however is not. our rights are not hindered by gender, religion (non-muslims have lesser rights than muslims) or wealth.

and the cutting off of the hand IS done same as floggings and stonings as has been reported many times. TV shows now wouldnt know investgative journalism if they saw it. I remember Jan Wendt intervieing Idi Amin at the hieght of his power. Do you see that any more? no we have interviews with nobodies or people 5 steps removed from an event or person. It is rubbish. and the same applies to people who think Saudis have 'rights' and try and say so on TV.
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From one poster: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nanosecond, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family their parents
 
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #19 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 7:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 4:23pm:
Quote:
Unless you are prepared to do something about night time revellers, having less taxis isnt the answer.


This is why I am suggesting carbon taxes rather than less taxis.

Quote:
Petrol/Diesel is a co2 polluter, but there are no viable alternative technologies at present.


You don't have to look to technology for alternatives. You don't even need to look for alternatives.

Quote:
Plus these fuels are already taxed to high heaven.


The tax on petrol is not sufficient to cover the cost of road building and maintenance. Petrol taxes are also the most rational way to pay for roads, as they come closest to internalising the cost of the roads.

Quote:
Adding a co2 tax will be insignificant, a pain, and achieve nothing.


How will it be a pain? What makes you think it will achieve nothing?

Quote:
co2 price on electric generation I am all for. There are many proven technologies already there.  There just isnt for transport.


You are approaching the problem the wrong way. There is no need to switch to alternatives yet. The presence of 'technological' alternatives is not a rational argument against carbon taxes on petrol.


You are talking about taxing an essiential commodity needed in a country as vast as ours.  Unless things can be done to neutralise the cost of living with housing, making petrol so expensive that people cant afford it does nothing to promote those who need to commute to work.

I dont think making it so expensive that things like the commute to the kids footy on a Saturday becomes prohibitive is the answer to reducing CO2 when there is little alternatives avaliable.

Come live out in the rural areas where large commutes are a part of life, and the commute for footy makes up the social fabric of these areas.  At $1.50 for fuel, I think we are already paying enough.

There is also businesses that play a very important part in the community which shouldnt be dimissed as just Co2 emitters.

Its easy to point and say take public transport but the avaliability of that is virtually  nil outside of the cities.

There has to come a point where you say "alright, enough tax is enough".
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #20 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 7:44pm
 
Which method is the better at reducing greenhouse gases Freedriver?

And which would be easier to link in with a world effort.


Wouldn't an ETS be better for both aims?
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longweekend58
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #21 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 8:09pm
 
Quote:
Its easy to point and say take public transport but the avaliability of that is virtually  nil outside of the cities.


and even that doesnt answer the questio about the practicality of public transport. while its value in transporting people to and from the CBD is unquestioned, in virtually every other function it is pitiful. For example, you can take your family of 4 kids on a bus for 2 hours to get to a destination your car could take you in 20minutes. only a fool takes the bus. THATS the real problem.
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From one poster: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nanosecond, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family their parents
 
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #22 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 8:35pm
 
Quote:
Which method is the better at reducing greenhouse gases Freedriver?


Carbon taxes - see the links I posted.

Quote:
And which would be easier to link in with a world effort.


Again carbon taxes. They avoid the need for governments to cede economic soveriegnty to an international regulatory body. We do not have to set up a trading scheme. We merely have to agree on a minimum price (tax) on CO2 emissions. Countries can then do what they want with the proceeds. With taxes, the entire scheme does not fall apart just because one country undermines it, as could happen with a trading scheme. We have seen over the last 20 years how it is virtually impossible to set up an international trading scheme.

Quote:
Wouldn't an ETS be better for both aims?


No. I creates enourmous uncertainty in the price and hence the return on investments in reducing GHG emissions. This favours investments with quick returns over more fundamental changes that are cheaper in the long run. They also miss the opportunity to lower other taxes.

Quote:
For example, you can take your family of 4 kids on a bus for 2 hours to get to a destination your car could take you in 20minutes. only a fool takes the bus. THATS the real problem.


But it is not a problem. If you take the train to work and the car for the family trip, you have almost completely eliminated your transport emissions. A tax encourages such rational outcomes by maximising choice.

Quote:
You are talking about taxing an essiential commodity


News flash - most things that are taxed are essential. It is actually a well established economic principle that taxes do less economic harm if applied to essential commodoties.

CO2 emissions however are not essential. I bet you have never bought CO2 emissions in your life. What you have bought are goods and services that can be derived from CO2 emissions, in hugely varying quantities.

Are you happy with reducing CO2 emissions, just no taxing them? Or are you trying to walk backwards towards the point you are making?

Quote:
Unless things can be done to neutralise the cost of living with housing


Did you get the 'revenue neutral' bit?

Quote:
making petrol so expensive that people cant afford it


Who here has suggested that? Do you have any idea how much difference it would make to the price at the bowser?

Quote:
There is also businesses that play a very important part in the community which shouldnt be dimissed as just Co2 emitters.


If they really are that important then the tax will not put them out of business. It will only put out of business those companies that were not so important after all.

Quote:
Its easy to point and say take public transport but the avaliability of that is virtually  nil outside of the cities.


Perhaps you should start with what I did say then. No need to make up statements to argue against.
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #23 - Jan 5th, 2012 at 7:23am
 
Okay then FD, three questions for you;

- How much would you add to the bowser to apply the carbon tax?

- How much more does one increase the tax free threshold in order to offset this expense?

- Would there be any kind of concessions avaliable to rural communties where public transport is non existant and alternatives are just not avaliable?
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #24 - Jan 6th, 2012 at 3:55pm
 
Quote:
How much would you add to the bowser to apply the carbon tax?


This table gives approximately 3c/L for a carbon tax of $43 per ton of carbon (I think ours is about $23).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax

Quote:
How much more does one increase the tax free threshold in order to offset this expense?


You'll have to figure this one out yourself.

Quote:
Would there be any kind of concessions avaliable to rural communties where public transport is non existant and alternatives are just not avaliable?


Not if I was in charge. This would effectively be another subsidy for rural communities.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #25 - Jan 7th, 2012 at 7:40am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 6th, 2012 at 3:55pm:
Quote:
How much would you add to the bowser to apply the carbon tax?


This table gives approximately 3c/L for a carbon tax of $43 per ton of carbon (I think ours is about $23).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_tax

Quote:
How much more does one increase the tax free threshold in order to offset this expense?


You'll have to figure this one out yourself.

Quote:
Would there be any kind of concessions avaliable to rural communties where public transport is non existant and alternatives are just not avaliable?


Not if I was in charge. This would effectively be another subsidy for rural communities.


Your carbon tax on fuel would be a direct burden on rural communities.  If you are going to impose a tax that directly disadvantages people just because they live outside the urban sprawl, why shouldnt they be compensated?

Last time I checked rural communites played a pretty important role in the ongoing sucess of this country.  Your tax on fuel is a direct attack on them.  The NSW government is trying to get people to move to these areas and offerring subsidies to do so because even they understand how important it is to have workers out here.

If your tax is going to lead to a direct increase cost of living on a sector in the country with no other alternatives available, be wary of what future impacts to things such as your cost of living.
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #26 - Jan 8th, 2012 at 9:14am
 
Quote:
If you are going to impose a tax that directly disadvantages people just because they live outside the urban sprawl, why shouldnt they be compensated?


It only disadvantages people with higher GHG emissions. It disadvantages them because they are harming the rest of society, not because of where they live. It does not make sense to subsidise harmful lifestyles at the same time as trying to reduce the harm.

I suspect you have it backwards anyway. People in the major cities tend to spend far more time commuting to work every day than those in rural areas. All those hours add up. Wherever you choose to live, there are many simple choices you can make to reduce your emissions.

Quote:
with no other alternatives available


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Last time I checked rural communites played a pretty important role


If their role really is important then it will not stop because of the tax.
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #27 - Jan 9th, 2012 at 12:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 8th, 2012 at 9:14am:
Quote:
If you are going to impose a tax that directly disadvantages people just because they live outside the urban sprawl, why shouldnt they be compensated?


It only disadvantages people with higher GHG emissions. It disadvantages them because they are harming the rest of society, not because of where they live. It does not make sense to subsidise harmful lifestyles at the same time as trying to reduce the harm.

I suspect you have it backwards anyway. People in the major cities tend to spend far more time commuting to work every day than those in rural areas. All those hours add up. Wherever you choose to live, there are many simple choices you can make to reduce your emissions.

Quote:
with no other alternatives available


There are plenty of options.

Quote:
Last time I checked rural communites played a pretty important role


If their role really is important then it will not stop because of the tax.


I will be delighted to see what the alternatives are to using petrol for people living in rural areas.
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #28 - Jan 9th, 2012 at 7:33pm
 
Their options include:

paying the tax
passing on the cost
driving less
getting a more fuel efficient vehicle
switching to gas
riding a bike
living closer to work
public transport
carpooling
shopping around

etc

Still not sure why you are playing the class politics on this one. The choices faced by rural people are the same choices faced by everyone else, except that they tend to have much shorter commutes and spend far less on fuel. 2c a litre is hardly a lifechanging event. It happens every day.
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Re: Another carbon tax campaign
Reply #29 - Jan 11th, 2012 at 8:13pm
 
Apparently (according to Claire Moore's office) the carbon price will be incrementally applied to all fuel from 2013. The exclusion of fuel was only temporary.
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