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Islam is the way forward (Read 13063 times)
Annie Anthrax
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #75 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am
 
Then how do you explain all the Muslims who condemned Bin Laden after 9/11?
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #76 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:20am
 
Quote:
It's not that you are critical of Islam that is the problem, it's the attitude.


So after all this you cannot actually say what anyone is doing wrong. It just comes down to how you interpret what we post?

Quote:
He has given you straight answers about Islam before. So have I. Your method of debate is to choose a sentence out of a couple and use it as a weapon


Some of those straight answers have either directly or indirectly contradicted each other. Neither you nor Abu have been willing to explain those apparent contradictions. Some of those straight answers were rather surprising or disturbing and generated a lot of interest and further questions. Despite Abu's belief in his perfect communication skills, some of his answers were ambiguous and confusing. Again, trying to get clarification has been like trying to get blood out of a stone. We need to go through about 20 pages of excuses for every straight answer Abu gives. Obviously, your 'contribution' is not exactly helping the situation. 

This may come as a shock to you Annie, but quoting what people actually post and addressing what they specifically say is actually the more reasonable debating strategy, rather than waving your arms in the air and addressing what you think the intent or the zattitude of a post is.

Quote:
I've said this before, but I really do think that most  of that is in reaction to some of the bullshit that is posted on here by people like Sprint, Yadda and Salad In.


Abu prefers to respond to BS because he can criticise it while posting his own BS in response. He is scared to respond to simple, straightforward questions about Islam.

Quote:
Yes he can, but if you're asking a genuine question about the religion, an answer from anybody who knows it should be enough. I have answered you plenty of times with the best intentions and you have never accepted them for what they are and moved on


I did accept them. I moved on to the next question. You seem to think that a single answer to a single answer resolves everything and any further discussion is unreasonable and unnecessary. The reality is the opposite. If Abu contradicts himself or you contradict Abu, obviously people are going to ask why. You seem to think you have perfect communication skills or are God and therefor once you have spoken that is the end of the matter. If you and Abu put a tenth as much effort into giving straight answers as you put into your absurd excuses this would actually be over. This is your circus.

Quote:
Your intention is not to learn, but to challenge and change Abu's mind.


As with Abu, if you want to have a sensible debate, you need to stop telling other people what they think. It is you who needs to approach the debate with an open mind, everyone else already is. I have never attempted to change Abu's mind about Islam. My only goal has been to find out what Abu believes, and Abu runs scared from that.

Quote:
I am absolutely not trying to prevent debate.


You continually change the topic from Islam to why we are not worthy of any straight answers about Islam. It is still a debate, but a rather stupid one.

Quote:
If you want him to give you the respect of a straight forward answer, then give him the respect of asking genuine questions without the bad attitude and condescension and attempts at entrapment.


Now you are just being silly Annie. My questions were genuine. Abu just did not like his own answers. Exposing someone's self contradictions and asking for a clarification is not entrapment. It is Abu digging his own hole.
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Soren
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #77 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:36am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am:
Then how do you explain all the Muslims who condemned Bin Laden after 9/11?

They were lapsed Muslims.

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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #78 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:46am
 
freediver wrote on Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:20am:
Quote:
It's not that you are critical of Islam that is the problem, it's the attitude.


So after all this you cannot actually say what anyone is doing wrong. It just comes down to how you interpret what we post?

Quote:
He has given you straight answers about Islam before. So have I. Your method of debate is to choose a sentence out of a couple and use it as a weapon


Some of those straight answers have either directly or indirectly contradicted each other. Neither you nor Abu have been willing to explain those apparent contradictions. Some of those straight answers were rather surprising or disturbing and generated a lot of interest and further questions. Despite Abu's belief in his perfect communication skills, some of his answers were ambiguous and confusing. Again, trying to get clarification has been like trying to get blood out of a stone. We need to go through about 20 pages of excuses for every straight answer Abu gives. Obviously, your 'contribution' is not exactly helping the situation. 

This may come as a shock to you Annie, but quoting what people actually post and addressing what they specifically say is actually the more reasonable debating strategy, rather than waving your arms in the air and addressing what you think the intent or the zattitude of a post is.

Quote:
I've said this before, but I really do think that most  of that is in reaction to some of the bullshit that is posted on here by people like Sprint, Yadda and Salad In.


Abu prefers to respond to BS because he can criticise it while posting his own BS in response. He is scared to respond to simple, straightforward questions about Islam.

Quote:
Yes he can, but if you're asking a genuine question about the religion, an answer from anybody who knows it should be enough. I have answered you plenty of times with the best intentions and you have never accepted them for what they are and moved on


I did accept them. I moved on to the next question. You seem to think that a single answer to a single answer resolves everything and any further discussion is unreasonable and unnecessary. The reality is the opposite. If Abu contradicts himself or you contradict Abu, obviously people are going to ask why. You seem to think you have perfect communication skills or are God and therefor once you have spoken that is the end of the matter. If you and Abu put a tenth as much effort into giving straight answers as you put into your absurd excuses this would actually be over. This is your circus.

Quote:
Your intention is not to learn, but to challenge and change Abu's mind.


As with Abu, if you want to have a sensible debate, you need to stop telling other people what they think. It is you who needs to approach the debate with an open mind, everyone else already is. I have never attempted to change Abu's mind about Islam. My only goal has been to find out what Abu believes, and Abu runs scared from that.

Quote:
I am absolutely not trying to prevent debate.


You continually change the topic from Islam to why we are not worthy of any straight answers about Islam. It is still a debate, but a rather stupid one.

Quote:
If you want him to give you the respect of a straight forward answer, then give him the respect of asking genuine questions without the bad attitude and condescension and attempts at entrapment.


Now you are just being silly Annie. My questions were genuine. Abu just did not like his own answers. Exposing someone's self contradictions and asking for a clarification is not entrapment. It is Abu digging his own hole.



You could be right. We shall see. If you ask a question of Abu about Islam and I know the answer, is it okay with you if I provide it?

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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #79 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:47am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:36am:
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am:
Then how do you explain all the Muslims who condemned Bin Laden after 9/11?

They were lapsed Muslims.




They were Islamic leaders.
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Postmodern Trendoid III
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #80 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 1:18pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 2nd, 2012 at 7:44pm:
Says a lot about the morals of the West doesn't it?

Capitalism is only interested in one thing. It will do whatever it can to get it.


There you go again.

So what do you think about Qatar? Or is it okay to be rich, capitalist and Muslim, but not rich, capitalist and Western?
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #81 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:17pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 3rd, 2012 at 10:45am:
Then how do you explain all the Muslims who condemned Bin Laden after 9/11?


The same Muslims who get tax breaks for being a practicing Religion? What else were you expecting them to say.
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #82 - Jan 3rd, 2012 at 11:22pm
 
I'm not talking about Western Muslims, Goddy.

And I wrote you a big long thoughtful message in that other thread where you got your panties in a bunch and you didn't even bother to read it.
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freediver
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #83 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:21am
 
Quote:
You could be right. We shall see. If you ask a question of Abu about Islam and I know the answer, is it okay with you if I provide it?


Sure, Yadda already tries to help me out with this.

This one would be a good place to start. Abu at first claimed that Islamic courts do reject dhimmy evidence. Then said the opposite. Eventually he acknowledged his contradiction and said that his later claims abrogated the earlier ones. Then Les turned up and implied that there is a subtle difference between 'rejecting' the evidence of dhimmies and assuming it to be untrustworthy. It was a pretty big effort just to get Abu to acknowledge what he said so I kind of gave up with Les as he seems incapable of posting anything other than insults.

I am particularly interested in what would lead Abu to believe what he initially claimed. Abu frequently insists that my wiki is full of lies, yet most of it is what he himself posted, so maybe he has adopted a more progressive interpretation of Islam.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1317211760
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #84 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:41am
 
The testimony of a non-Muslim is not accepted in a Shariah court because the most important guarantee of integrity and honesty is fear of Allah. This is not to say that non-Muslims do not have integrity or are dishonest, but that in the case where a person is on trial, then the fear of Allah is important (particularly considering some of the punishments involved).

This is the truth, no going back. I called my local Imam to be sure and they are his words, more or less.


This is the case for criminal matters, not sure on civil matters.


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Soren
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #85 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:54am
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:41am:
The testimony of a non-Muslim is not accepted in a Shariah court because the most important guarantee of integrity and honesty is fear of Allah. This is not to say that non-Muslims do not have integrity or are dishonest, but that in the case where a person is on trial, then the fear of Allah is important (particularly considering some of the punishments involved).

This is the truth, no going back. I called my local Imam to be sure and they are his words, more or less.


This is the case for criminal matters, not sure on civil matters.





How cringeworthy!!! As if every Muslim was equally Allah-fearing.

This is truly incompatible with our own Enlightenment tradition of law, sociaty and concepts of what the human person is.

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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #86 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 10:06am
 
I should have asked him where in the Quran it says that. Abu, do you know?
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Soren
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #87 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 10:41am
 
2 women = 1 man
See Koran 2.282; 4:11;
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:The Prophet said, "Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?" The women said, "Yes." He said, "This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind."


Compare: Galatians 3:28




Testimony of non-muslims against Muslims is not accepted in sharia because a non-muslim cannot have power over a Muslim in a sharia court.



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Annie Anthrax
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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #88 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 11:49am
 

This is 2:282 in it's entirety:

Quote:
O you who have believed, when you contract a debt for a specified term, write it down. And let a scribe write [it] between you in justice. Let no scribe refuse to write as Allah has taught him. So let him write and let the one who has the obligation dictate. And let him fear Allah , his Lord, and not leave anything out of it. But if the one who has the obligation is of limited understanding or weak or unable to dictate himself, then let his guardian dictate in justice. And bring to witness two witnesses from among your men. And if there are not two men [available], then a man and two women from those whom you accept as witnesses - so that if one of the women errs, then the other can remind her. And let not the witnesses refuse when they are called upon. And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you, except when it is an immediate transaction which you conduct among yourselves. For [then] there is no blame upon you if you do not write it. And take witnesses when you conclude a contract. Let no scribe be harmed or any witness. For if you do so, indeed, it is [grave] disobedience in you. And fear Allah . And Allah teaches you. And Allah is Knowing of all things.



This is 4:11:

Quote:
Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females. But if there are [only] daughters, two or more, for them is two thirds of one's estate. And if there is only one, for her is half. And for one's parents, to each one of them is a sixth of his estate if he left children. But if he had no children and the parents [alone] inherit from him, then for his mother is one third. And if he had brothers [or sisters], for his mother is a sixth, after any bequest he [may have] made or debt. Your parents or your children - you know not which of them are nearest to you in benefit. [These shares are] an obligation [imposed] by Allah . Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.


The second is from a Sura called al Nisa. Nisa means women in Arabic. The verse you mention is about inheritance. Because in Islam it is a man's duty to support his wife financially, daughters get a half of what their brothers do. Her brother has to support his family, while she is in turn support by her husband. A man can't touch any money his wife inherits unless she gives it to him freely.

Women are further safeguarded by dowry payments and money that they get if they're ever divorced. I forget what that's called. The money is guaranteed up front in the marriage contract. For example, my old neighbour was given 10k at the outset with a guarantee of 100k should her husband ever divorce her.

If you'd like to read those Suras yourself, here is a link to the entire Quran online that is pretty easy to navigate: 

http://quran.com/4


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Re: Islam is the way forward
Reply #89 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 12:39pm
 
Quote:
with a guarantee of 100k should her husband ever divorce her


Adjusted for inflation?
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