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Abu and Les deflecting re: death for apostasy (Read 26834 times)
falah
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #30 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 12:57pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:36am:
Q.
When will moslems, themselves, take responsibility for what ISLAM and Sharia enable and empower [i.e. the persecution and abuse of the weak and those without political power], within Sharia jurisdictions ???

A.
Never.
Never will a moslem acknowledge, that it is the form and doctrines of ISLAM itself, which is facilitating wholesale injustices and abuses [of the weak and those without political power] within Sharia jurisdictions.




How Should Muslim of a Sharia-led Country Treat A Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen)?


Fatwa Given by famous Saudi scholar Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid:

The duty of the Muslim towards a non-Muslim includes a number of things:

Firstly:

Missionary work, or calling him to God, may He be glorified and exalted. He should call him to God and explain to him the reality of Islam when possible, with regard to whatever issues he has knowledge about, because this is the greatest kindness that he can give to his fellow-citizens and to those whom he meets of Jews, Christians and others who may be polytheists, because the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “The one who guides others to goodness will have a reward like that of the one who does it.”...

So calling him (the non-Muslim) to Islam, conveying Islam to him and being sincere towards him in that are among the best means of drawing close to God.

Secondly:  

He should not wrong him, with regard to his physical wellbeing, his wealth or his honour. If he is a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule), musta’man (one who is granted security in a Muslim land) or mu‘aahid (one with whose country the Muslims have a peace treaty), then he should give him his due rights, and not transgress against his wealth by stealing, betraying or deceiving, and he should not harm him physically by striking or killing him, because the fact that he is a mu‘aahid or dhimmi, or musta’man, means that he is protected by sharee‘ah.

Thirdly:

There is no reason why we should not interact with him, buying, selling, renting, hiring and so on. It is narrated in saheeh reports that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of God be upon him) bought from disbelievers who were idol worshippers, and he bought from the Jews, and these are interactions. When he (blessings and peace of God be upon him) died, his shield was being held in collateral by a Jew for some food he had bought for his family (blessings and peace of God be upon him). [the debt to the Jew was repayed by the prophet's relatives]


These are some of the general rights between a Muslim and a disbeliever.

Another right is being a good neighbour. So if he is a neighbour, be kind to him and do not annoy him; give charity to him if he is poor, give him gifts, give him beneficial advice, because these are things that will attract him to Islam and to become Muslim; and because the neighbour has rights. The Messenger (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Gabriel kept urging me to be kind to my neighbour until I thought that he would make him my heir.” [hadith found in the two most pre-eminent books of haderth; Bukhari & Muslim]. If the neighbour is a disbeliever, he still has the rights of a neighbour; if he is both a relative and a disbeliever, then he has two rights: the rights of a neighbour and the rights of a relative.

One of the rights of the neighbour is that you should give him charity...if he is poor, because God says (interpretation of the meaning): “God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity” [al-Mumtahanah 60:8]. According to the authentic hadeeth narrated from Asma’ bint Abi Bakr...her mother, who was a polytheist, visited upon her during the truce between the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) and the people of Makkah, seeking help. Asma’ asked the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) for permission - should she uphold ties of kinship with her? The Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Uphold ties of kinship with her.”

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #31 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 1:22pm
 
falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 12:57pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 27th, 2011 at 8:36am:
Q.
When will moslems, themselves, take responsibility for what ISLAM and Sharia enable and empower [i.e. the persecution and abuse of the weak and those without political power], within Sharia jurisdictions ???

A.
Never.
Never will a moslem acknowledge, that it is the form and doctrines of ISLAM itself, which is facilitating wholesale injustices and abuses [of the weak and those without political power] within Sharia jurisdictions.




How Should Muslim of a Sharia-led Country Treat A Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen)?


Fatwa Given by famous Saudi scholar Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid:

The duty of the Muslim towards a non-Muslim includes a number of things:

Firstly:

Missionary work, or calling him to God, may He be glorified and exalted. He should call him to God and explain to him the reality of Islam when possible, with regard to whatever issues he has knowledge about, because this is the greatest kindness that he can give to his fellow-citizens and to those whom he meets of Jews, Christians and others who may be polytheists, because the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “The one who guides others to goodness will have a reward like that of the one who does it.”...

So calling him (the non-Muslim) to Islam, conveying Islam to him and being sincere towards him in that are among the best means of drawing close to God.

Secondly: 

He should not wrong him, with regard to his physical wellbeing, his wealth or his honour. If he is a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule), musta’man (one who is granted security in a Muslim land) or mu‘aahid (one with whose country the Muslims have a peace treaty), then he should give him his due rights, and not transgress against his wealth by stealing, betraying or deceiving, and he should not harm him physically by striking or killing him, because the fact that he is a mu‘aahid or dhimmi, or musta’man, means that he is protected by sharee‘ah.

Thirdly:

There is no reason why we should not interact with him, buying, selling, renting, hiring and so on. It is narrated in saheeh reports that the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of God be upon him) bought from disbelievers who were idol worshippers, and he bought from the Jews, and these are interactions. When he (blessings and peace of God be upon him) died, his shield was being held in collateral by a Jew for some food he had bought for his family (blessings and peace of God be upon him). [the debt to the Jew was repayed by the prophet's relatives]


These are some of the general rights between a Muslim and a disbeliever.

Another right is being a good neighbour. So if he is a neighbour, be kind to him and do not annoy him; give charity to him if he is poor, give him gifts, give him beneficial advice, because these are things that will attract him to Islam and to become Muslim; and because the neighbour has rights. The Messenger (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Gabriel kept urging me to be kind to my neighbour until I thought that he would make him my heir.” [hadith found in the two most pre-eminent books of haderth; Bukhari & Muslim]. If the neighbour is a disbeliever, he still has the rights of a neighbour; if he is both a relative and a disbeliever, then he has two rights: the rights of a neighbour and the rights of a relative.

One of the rights of the neighbour is that you should give him charity...if he is poor, because God says (interpretation of the meaning): “God does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion nor drove you out of your homes. Verily, God loves those who deal with equity” [al-Mumtahanah 60:8]. According to the authentic hadeeth narrated from Asma’ bint Abi Bakr...her mother, who was a polytheist, visited upon her during the truce between the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) and the people of Makkah, seeking help. Asma’ asked the Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) for permission - should she uphold ties of kinship with her? The Prophet (blessings and peace of God be upon him) said: “Uphold ties of kinship with her.”





LIARS, murderers,    ....moslems.


Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #32 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 1:50pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 1:22pm:
falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 12:57pm:

How Should Muslim of a Sharia-led Country Treat A Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen)?


Fatwa Given
by famous Saudi scholar Muhammed Salih al-Munajjid
:

The duty of the Muslim towards a non-Muslim includes a number of things:

Firstly:





LIARS, murderers,    ....moslems.






Google;
saudi arabia beheading christian



Google;
saudi arabia persecutes christians



Google;
saudi arabia display of bible christians








LIARS, murderers,    ....moslems.





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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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falah
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #33 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm
 
One of the greatest experts on Islamic law, Shihab al-Din al-Qarafi, wrote 700 years ago in Egypt:

“It is the responsibility of the Muslims to the People of the Dhimma to care for their weak, fulfil the needs of the poor, feed the hungry, provide clothes, address them politely, and even tolerate their harm even if it was from a neighbour, even though the Muslim would have an upper hand. The Muslims must also advise them sincerely on their affairs and protect them against anyone who tries to hurt them or their family, steal their wealth, or violates their rights.”


Prophet Muhammed صلى الله عليه وسلم is reported to have said: "The one who kills a Mu'ahid (people with whom the State has treaties) without right he will not smell the fragrance of heaven even if its smell was forty years travelling distance." [Ahmed]


Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.

When the Christians expelled the Jews from Spain in the the 15th century, they were welcomed to the Ottoman Caliphate and contributed much to the state as they will do in the future. Jewish physicians from the school of Salanca were employed in the service of the Caliph, and in many places glass making and metalworking were Jewish monopolies. With their knowledge of foreign languages they were the greatest competitors of the Venetian traders.

All this led the Ottoman Caliph Sultan Bajazet II, to say with reference to the expulsion of the Jews by Ferdinand, the Catholic King of Spain, “How can you call this Ferdinand ‘wise' - he who has impoverished his dominions in order to enrich mine?”
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« Last Edit: Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:01pm by falah »  

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #34 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:46pm
 
Scholarly perspective of life in Islamic Spain


The Muslim invasion, and subsequent administration of Iberia, freed the major Spanish population of Jews from Visigothic [Christian] oppression.  It was said that immediately after the invasion, the Jewish population of Toledo "opened the gates" of the city, welcoming the North African Muslims (Wexler 218).  Though ruthless fighters, the Moors were very just. They gave the Goth Spaniards an opportunity to surrender each of their provinces, to which most capitulated.

"It is a common misapprehension that the holy war meant that the Muslims gave their opponents a choice 'between Islam and the sword'. This was sometimes the case, but only when the opponents were polytheist and idol-worshippers. For Jews, Christians, and other 'People of the Book'.there was a third possibility, they might become a 'protected group', paying a tax or tribute to the Muslims but enjoying internal autonomy" (Watt 144).

Even in those early days, the Moors knew and practiced the principles of chivalry.  They had already won the title to Knightliness which many centuries later compelled the victorious Spaniards to addressed them as "Knights of Granada, Gentleman, albeit Moors"  (Lane-Poole 26)...

...Within a century of their activity, the Moors, with assistance of the Jews, had developed a civilization based in Cordoba that surpassed that of any in Europe; it was known as Al-Andalus.  At the end of the eighth century, Al-Andalus was the most populous, cultured, and industrious land of all Europe, remaining so for centuries.  During this prosperous period, trade with the outside world was unrivaled.  It was during this time of economic expansion, the Jews, who had been virtually eliminated from the peninsula in the seventh century by the Christians, grew once more in numbers and flourished.  Hume wrote in his book "Spanish People": "Side by side with the new rulers lived the Christians and Jews in peace. The latter rich with commerce and industry were content to let the memory of their oppression by the priest-ridden Goths sleep" (Hume 23).

...The occupation of Iberia by the Moors was a welcome occurrence for a well pummeled and remaining Jewish population.  Of course the Muslims were not completely tolerant, but they were more tolerant than the rulers of the previous administration. Under the ruling Caliph, the Jews were able to preserve their rites and traditions.  Peaceful coexistence led to their economic and social expansion.  Their status was that of Dhimmis, non-Muslims living in a land governed by Muslims.  The Jews had limited autonomy, but full rights to practice their religion, as well as full protection by their Muslim rulers...

...From the second half of the eighth century to the end of the eleventh century Jewish life flourished while contributing greatly to scholarship.  A translating program was established in Toledo, using Jews as interpreters. There they translated the Arabic books into romance languages, as well as Greek and Hebrew texts into Arabic.  This included many major works of Greek science and philosophy.  Jews studied and contributed to mathematics, medicine, botany, geography, poetry, and philosophy.  It was at this time that the study of Medicine expanded to produce a large number of exceptional Jewish physicians.  Islam had its sway over Jewish cultural life too.  In literature, and the arts, the Muslim influence on the Jews is enormous.  Though written in non-Islamic language and script, medieval Hebrew poetry, and much of the prose literature, belong to the same cultural world as Arabic and other literatures of Islam (Lewis 81).  In the Caliphate of Cordoba [the geographical zenith of Islamic life in Al-Andalus], the Jewish element became increasingly important, reaching its peak in the tenth century  (Diaz-Mas 3).  Jews lived among themselves in a walled area known as the aljama (Jewish quarter). There they lived among their own administration, and managed their own communal affairs (Epstein 1).  There the Jewish community had their own legal court known as the Beit Din.  This court, with Rabbis as Judges, would render both religious and civil legal opinions pertaining to Jewish affairs inside the aljama.  In the Beit Din the Jews were allowed to settle their own disputes.  This of course was positive for the them;  but it was also positive for the Muslims to, as it decreased the work load of the Islamic courts.

The influence Islamic culture injected into Jewish life was significant.  Jews accepted many customs and traditions of the Moors and interweaved them into their daily life.  The Arabic language, instead of Spanish and Hebrew, was used for prayers.  Ceremoniously washing of the hands and feet, which is an Islamic custom, became adopted by Jews before entering Synagogues.  Moreover, Jewish music was sung to the tune of old Arabic melodies.  Jews adopted the clothing style of their Moorish neighbors...

Diaz-Mas, Paloma. Sephardim: The Jews from Spain. Chicago.

Epstein, Isidore. Studies in the Communal Life of the Jews of Spain.

Hume, Martin A. S. The Spanish People: Their Origin, Growth and Influence. New York

Lane-Poole, Stanley. The Story of the Moors in Spain. Baltimore, MD:

Watt, Montgomery. A History of Islamic Spain.

http://www.sephardicstudies.org/islam.html
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« Last Edit: Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:01pm by falah »  

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #35 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:07pm
 
The ornament of the world:
how Muslims, Jews, and Christians created a culture of tolerance in medieval Spain


María Rosa Menocal

http://bks3.books.google.com/booksid=4dxbqEmU-OkC&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1

Undoing the familiar notion of the Middle Ages as a period of religious persecution and intellectual stagnation, Maria Menocal now brings us a portrait of a medieval culture where literature, science, and tolerance flourished for 500 years.

The story begins as a young prince in exile -- the last heir to an Islamic dynasty -- founds a new kingdom on the Iberian peninsula: al-Andalus. Combining the best of what Muslim, Jewish, and Christian cultures had to offer, al-Andalus and its successors influenced the rest of Europe in dramatic ways, from the death of liturgical Latin and the spread of secular poetry, to remarkable feats in architecture, science, and technology. The glory of the Andalusian kingdoms endured until the Renaissance, when Christian monarchs forcibly converted, executed, or expelled non-Catholics from Spain. In this wonderful book, we can finally explore the lost history whose legacy is still with us in countless ways.


Menocal (R. Selden Rose Professor of Spanish and Portuguese and director of Special Programs in the Humanities, Yale Univ.) has previously published The Arabic Role in Medieval Literary History: A Forgotten Heritage, as well as other books on the role of the vernacular in medieval cultures. This book certainly reflects her deep scholarship. Menocal offers persuasive evidence that the Renaissance was strongly foreshadowed by the intellectual climate of Spain in the preceding centuries, starting in 783 with the founding of Andalusia by Abd al-Rahman, an Umayyad from Syria. The culture created was receptive to intellectual pursuits not allowed in the rest of Europe for several centuries, including the creation of impressive libraries and the study and translation of Classical authors. Menocal claims that this environment was largely a result of the tolerance shown by this ruler and his successors toward Christians and Jews and their cultures... 



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« Last Edit: Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:15pm by falah »  

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #36 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:14pm
 
falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm:

......Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.






ISLAM is a lie, and the truth is killing it.



Google;
taqiyya muslim lying for islam



Google;
taqiyya - the muslim doctrine of deceit



Google;
we smile to the face "while our hearts curse them"



Google;
How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War




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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #37 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:20pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:14pm:
falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm:

......Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.






ISLAM is a lie, and the truth is killing it.



Google;
taqiyya muslim lying for islam







Paloma Diaz-Mas, Isidore Epstein, Martin Hume, Stanley Lane-Poole, Montgomery Watt...they are all lying Muslims are they Yadda?

What about the Jewish website http://www.sephardicstudies.org/islam.html  set up by lying Muslims too was it Yadda?

You live in a dark delusionary world Yadda. I urge you to seek psychiatric help to cure your delusional paranoia. I hope you get the treatment you need.
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #38 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:34pm
 
falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:20pm:
Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:14pm:
falah wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 2:44pm:

......Let us look at how the Jews in Islamic Spain flourished in a jewish golden age.






ISLAM is a lie, and the truth is killing it.



Google;
taqiyya muslim lying for islam







Paloma Diaz-Mas, Isidore Epstein, Martin Hume, Stanley Lane-Poole, Montgomery Watt...they are all lying Muslims are they Yadda?

What about the Jewish website http://www.sephardicstudies.org/islam.html  set up by lying Muslims too was it Yadda?

You live in a dark delusionary world Yadda. I urge you to seek psychiatric help to cure your delusional paranoia. I hope you get the treatment you need.




Dhimmis being 'taken in' by ISLAMIST lies, doesn't make it true.

And today, many, many, dhimmi 'intellectuals' in Western academia, have sold their souls, to the Arab petro-dollar.





"He that serves God for money, will serve the Devil for better wages."

Sir Roger L’Estrange


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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falah
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #39 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 6:15pm
 
Yadda wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 3:34pm:
Dhimmis being 'taken in' by ISLAMIST lies, doesn't make it true.

And today, many, many, dhimmi 'intellectuals' in Western academia, have sold their souls, to the Arab petro-dollar.


One of the books referenced was written in 1901 - about 30 years before oil was even discovered in Arabia!

Anyway, I suspect that any scholar who does not support your delusional paranoid view will be described as a "dhimmi".
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #40 - Sep 30th, 2011 at 6:33pm
 
Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under Islamic law?
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #41 - Oct 1st, 2011 at 3:30am
 
freediver wrote on Sep 30th, 2011 at 6:33pm:
Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under Islamic law?


That is a bit hypothetical is it not? I do not live in a country run according to Islamic law, so my opinion of certain elements seem to be hardly relevant.

I suggest examining the issue of the apostate. Is there anything wrong with him?

Clearly the answer is yes. An apostate has rejected pure Islamic monotheism.

We are presented with two possibilities. Either the apostate is mentally inadequate, which makes him innocent in Islamic law, or he is a committed polytheist.

The polytheist disrespects God, and therefore earns the reward of the Hellfire. What could be worse for a human than going to the Hellfire?

The apostate is cursed by God for choosing polytheism.

The apostate is particularly harmful to the monotheistic society because he propagates a message of polytheism - if a disbeliever was not interested in propagation of polytheism, then he would either flee the Islamic state or remain quiet.

So the apostate is one who would call people to the Hellfire, and there is nothing worse that can happen to people than going to Hell. Therefore the apostate is a dangerous individual who harms his commuinity.
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #42 - Oct 1st, 2011 at 7:56am
 
Quote:
so my opinion of certain elements seem to be hardly relevant


It matters to me. I am basically asking you what Islamic law is on the matter - according to you. Not whether you find it palatable.

Quote:
We are presented with two possibilities. Either the apostate is mentally inadequate, which makes him innocent in Islamic law, or he is a committed polytheist.


Are they really the only two you can think of?

Quote:
Therefore the apostate is a dangerous individual who harms his commuinity.


Should he be stoned to death?
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #43 - Oct 1st, 2011 at 12:49pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 1st, 2011 at 7:56am:
Are they really the only two you can think of?

Well, actually there is also the ignorant person for whom it is easy for the devil to put doubt in his heart. Scholars of Islam have said that such a person should have people learned in the religion dispel his doubts for him through reasoning, and using Islamic evidence.
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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #44 - Oct 1st, 2011 at 12:55pm
 
And if he still rejects Islam? Death by stoning?
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