Australian Politics Forum - Abu and Les deflecting re: death for apostasy

abu_rashid

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #15 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 4:43pm

Yadda wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:50am:

As per usual, we see....

A good, virtuous moslem [or community of moslems] in the world = = A MYTHICAL, NON EXISTENT CREATURE

A moslem in the world who is a corrupt, violent oppressor of his fellow man = = NOT A REAL MOSLEM

Since the states in question have no allegiance to Islam, why would I as a Muslim take them as an example of Islam? If Muslims setup puppet Western states in the near future, and we make them oppressive dictatorships, will you take up the position as their defender and promoter? I highly doubt it.

Here is a clear example of the West's intent when it came to moulding the current states in the Muslim world:

“[We need an] Arab facade ruled and administered under British guidance and controlled by a native Mohammedan and, as far as possible, by an Arab staff…. There should be no actual incorporation of the conquered territory in the dominions of the conqueror, but the absorption may be veiled by such constitutional fictions as a protectorate, a sphere of influence, a buffer state and so on.”— Lord Curzon [British Foreign Secretary, 1919-1924]

If anything, these "statelets" should be used as an example of what is wrong with the Western system, not the Islamic system.

But I guess it's easier to just use these strawmen you yourselves have set up.

Yadda wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 8:50am:

It is absolutely impossible for ISLAM to produce a harmonious, just, and stable society.

Well it did so for many centuries, certainly far more than Christianity ever achieved. I think you know deep down that when you attack Islam for some Muslims not being true to their principles, you're really having your own personal dig at Christianity, because you know full well Christians do not practice at all what they preach.

So your argument so far seems to be something like this:

"I'm not willing to consider the 1350 years of Islamic rule as a valid example of Islam, only the past 100 years of colonialist puppets states we setup in your lands and use to oppress you"....

And sadly you believe your argument is actually valid. I feel sorry for you Yadda, because you're clearly not too cluey.

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freediver

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #16 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 7:24pm

Quote:

Also covered in the Common Misconceptions thread.

Actually the common misconceptions thread appears to go out of the way to avoid that particular issue.

Quote:

And I've told you that before.

And every time I bring up something you have told me before, Les accuses me of lying about what you said and you step in and encourage him and the deception he is creating.

Quote:

Why you continually ask for it to be repeated for you is beyond me.

Could it be because I get accused of lying about what you say all the time by other Muslims, and you encourage these accusations?

Quote:

What if a traitor used to be a patriot in a Western country?

I am not talking about treason Abu. I am talking about changing your religion. They are not the same thing. You however did try to pretend that Islam protects non-Muslims, while failing to mention all the options it gives Muslims to kill and harass non-Muslims.

Quote:

Where have I ever stated anything about Muslims straying from Islam?

So your response to my questions is either that you have told me before or you have not told me before - basically everything but an actual answer.

Quote:

Islam, since its earliest days, ruled over an entire sub-continent of adherents to non-Abrahamic religions, there is your example.

Abu I specifically pointed out that I wanted to know what Islam actually says on the matter, rather than an example of where Muslims may have been less strict than Islam requires. After all you yourself happily point out that the Muslims on that sub continent do not follow Islam properly. Again, you give anything but an answer.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #17 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:28pm

Listen fd, I'm really not interested in engaging you in your neverending folly. Open the misconceptions thread, search the page for "witness", or better yet actually read the thread, and then get back to me. Until you've read it, I'm really not interested in re-answering this nonsense for you.

Quote:

Abu I specifically pointed out that I wanted to know what Islam actually says on the matter, rather than an example of where Muslims may have been less strict than Islam requires.

The Muslims who opened the India sub-continent were quite strict. They were from the Umayyad Khilafah, and implemented nothing but Shari'ah law.

Quote:

After all you yourself happily point out that the Muslims on that sub continent do not follow Islam properly.

I don't believe I've said anything of the kind. Besides, it was Arabs who opened the land, and implemented Shari'ah over it. So the whole claim here is moot anyway

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« Last Edit: Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:43pm by abu_rashid »

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47366 At my desk.	Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy Reply #18 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:55pm Quote: I don't believe I've said anything of the kind. You criticised the Pakistanis for rejecting polygamy. Quote: Besides, it was Arabs who opened the land, WTF does that mean? You are the one who introduced the subcontinent as an example. Was it 'closed' at some point in time?
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abu_rashid

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #19 - Sep 28^th, 2011 at 10:42pm

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:55pm:

You criticised the Pakistanis for rejecting polygamy.

Again, I'm completely dumbfounded where you come up with this nonsense from. It's like a lucky dip with you, just never know what you're going to get.

freediver wrote on Sep 28^th, 2011 at 9:55pm:

Quote:

Besides, it was Arabs who opened the land,

WTF does that mean? You are the one who introduced the subcontinent as an example. Was it 'closed' at some point in time?

Ok, I'll try this one again slowly for you...

The Arabs (the Umayyad Khilafah) brought Islam to the Indian sub-continent, and they ruled over it with Shari'ah law. You then stated this is irrelevant, because supposedly Farouk in Lahore today does things that contradict Islam, therefore all the history of Islam in the sub-Continent is inadmissable to the discussion... I then pointed out that what Farouk in Lahore does today, has nothing to do with what the Arab Umayyads did in the sub-Continent when it was ruled by Shari'ah, and then you got lost....

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falah

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #20 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 10:50am

Yadda wrote on Sep 24^th, 2011 at 7:31pm:

But the fact is, that moslems are only prepared to reveal what ISLAM really is, when moslems believe that they have the ability [the political power, the 'licence'] to murder their critics, for 'insulting' ISLAM.

Otherwise, moslems, and the whole moslem community, will blatantly, and intentionally, and deceitfully, misrepresent ISLAM to non-moslems and to naive and trusting non-moslem host communities.

Moslems are unwilling to lay ISLAM bare to the scrutiny of non-moslems, because moslems know that they, moslems, are guilty people.

Scrutiny is good Yadda. So let us scrutinise what the Bible says to do with apostates:

Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death
. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people."

How about Deuteronomy 17:3-5:

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....

and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die

."

Those who engage in fortune telling should be executed:

"And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:27)

2 Chronicles 15:13:

"All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether young(children) or old, man or woman."

Maybe Jesus takes a softer approach?

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the way of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

Matthew 15:1-9

1 Then some Pharisees and rabbis came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied,

"And why do you break the command of God

for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and

'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.

'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6 he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"

Let us look at the founder of the trinitarian church, Paul, what does he have to say in the Bible:

He says every disbeliever deserves death!

Romans 1:20-32

"20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death...

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Yadda

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #21 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 11:48am

falah,

So your argument is, that just like ISLAM, 'real' Christianity ALSO promotes the idea that it is lawful to righteously kill people who don't believe what Christianity believes [teaches] ???

That is your argument ?

falah,

The punishments in those OT laws that you quote, apply ONLY to believers who are breaking their covenant with God.

And the law of God DOES make a distinction between covenant keepers, and covenant breakers.

But, many of those laws do not apply to 'unbelievers'.

The only OT laws which applied to both Hebrews and 'unbelievers', were laws relating to common criminals and oppressors.

God's law [OT law] DOES NOT, and never did, 'criminalise' the unbelief of unbelievers.

+++

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger
, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

In those last two verses, there is no qualification, that such entreaties applying only to 'believers'.
....like there is in the Koran.

It is ISLAM alone, which criminalises the unbelief of unbelievers.

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #22 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 11:59am

Yadda wrote on Sep 29^th, 2011 at 11:48am:

The only OT laws which applied to both Hebrews and 'unbelievers', were laws relating to common criminals and oppressors.

Of course also, there were laws, that prohibited unbelievers [who were living in the camp of the Hebrews] from approaching holy objects, or from participating in religious ceremonies.

But there were also laws relating to, if 'a soul shall sin through ignorance'....
...a 'monetary' penalty [i.e. the cost of a sin offering] would be exacted from an offender.

But his/her death is NOT required, .....for a 'sin through ignorance' against God's commandment, normally requiring death, as punishment.

The God of Israel is a just and righteous God.

He will not slay a person who, 'sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD'.

Leviticus 4:1
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.

Leviticus 4:22
When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.

Leviticus 4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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falah

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #23 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 5:47pm

you deny Jesus?

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the way of the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)

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Belgarion Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5310 Gender:	Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy Reply #24 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 5:52pm I wonder how this bloke feels about this subject. http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/christian-pastor-in-iran-faces-ex... The religion of peace is showing its true colours yet again.
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freediver

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #25 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 7:31pm

Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under islamic law?

Abu, was Les wrong in accusing me of lying about your stance on apostasy? This is a fair question given your encouragement of him.

Full article:

Christian pastor in Iran faces execution for apostasy

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/christian-pastor-in-iran-faces-execution-for-apostasy/story-fn3dxity-1226151114178

THE UK's Foreign Secretary and the Archbishop of Canterbury intervened today to try to save a Christian pastor in Iran who has refused to renounce his faith to escape a death sentence.

An Iranian court gave Youcef Nadarkhani, 34, a third and final chance to avoid hanging, but he replied, "I am resolute in my faith and Christianity and have no wish to recant."

The panel of five judges will decide within a week whether to confirm his execution for apostasy, Mohammed Ali Dadkhah, his lawyer, told The (London) Times.

William Hague said he "deplored" Pastor Nadarkhani's plight, and a senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office diplomat telephoned the Iranian charge d'affaires in London to protest.

"This demonstrates the Iranian regime's continued unwillingness to abide by its constitutional and international obligations to respect religious freedom," Mr Hague said. "I pay tribute to the courage shown by Pastor Nadarkhani, who has no case to answer, and call on the Iranian authorities to overturn his sentence."

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, broke his silence to express "deep concern" at the sentence faced by Nadarkhani, and at the persecution of religious minorities in Iran generally.

A member of the Protestant evangelical Church of Iran and the father of two young boys, Nadarkhani held services in underground "home churches" in Rasht, a provincial town about 240km north-west of Tehran.

In 2009, he challenged the regime's insistence that all schools should teach Islam. He was arrested in October that year and has been imprisoned in Rasht ever since. He was sentenced to death for apostasy by a court in Rasht last year.

Sources said Christian clerics and advisers had been working hard behind the scenes to save the pastor's life, but had sought to avoid "megaphone diplomacy" in case it did more harm than good.

The US Department of State has also condemned the Iranian judiciary for demanding that Nadarkhani renounce his faith or face execution.

"While Iran's leaders hypocritically claim to promote tolerance, they continue to detain, imprison, harass and abuse those who simply wish to worship the faith of their choosing," it said.

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falah

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #26 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 9:47pm

freediver wrote on Sep 29^th, 2011 at 7:31pm:

Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under islamic law?

Abu, was Les wrong in accusing me of lying about your stance on apostasy? This is a fair question given your encouragement of him.

Full article:

Christian pastor in Iran faces execution for apostasy

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/christian-pastor-in-iran-faces-execution-for-apostasy/story-fn3dxity-1226151114178

THE UK's Foreign Secretary and the Archbishop of Canterbury intervened today to try to save a Christian pastor in Iran who has refused to renounce his faith to escape a death sentence.

An Iranian court gave Youcef Nadarkhani, 34, a third and final chance to avoid hanging, but he replied, "I am resolute in my faith and Christianity and have no wish to recant."

The panel of five judges will decide within a week whether to confirm his execution for apostasy, Mohammed Ali Dadkhah, his lawyer, told The (London) Times.

William Hague said he "deplored" Pastor Nadarkhani's plight, and a senior Foreign and Commonwealth Office diplomat telephoned the Iranian charge d'affaires in London to protest.

"This demonstrates the Iranian regime's continued unwillingness to abide by its constitutional and international obligations to respect religious freedom," Mr Hague said. "I pay tribute to the courage shown by Pastor Nadarkhani, who has no case to answer, and call on the Iranian authorities to overturn his sentence."

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, broke his silence to express "deep concern" at the sentence faced by Nadarkhani, and at the persecution of religious minorities in Iran generally.

A member of the Protestant evangelical Church of Iran and the father of two young boys, Nadarkhani held services in underground "home churches" in Rasht, a provincial town about 240km north-west of Tehran.

In 2009, he challenged the regime's insistence that all schools should teach Islam. He was arrested in October that year and has been imprisoned in Rasht ever since. He was sentenced to death for apostasy by a court in Rasht last year.

Sources said Christian clerics and advisers had been working hard behind the scenes to save the pastor's life, but had sought to avoid "megaphone diplomacy" in case it did more harm than good.

The US Department of State has also condemned the Iranian judiciary for demanding that Nadarkhani renounce his faith or face execution.

"While Iran's leaders hypocritically claim to promote tolerance, they continue to detain, imprison, harass and abuse those who simply wish to worship the faith of their choosing," it said.

If people want to claim to be true worshippers of God Almighty, they should follow what they believe God commands them to do.

Would you prefer to refer to the Bible for guidance?

Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him.

Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death

, and then the hands of all the people."

How about Deuteronomy 17:3-5:

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....

and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.

"

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freediver Gold Member Online www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47366 At my desk.	Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy Reply #27 - Sep 29^th, 2011 at 10:03pm Falah, do you also support the death penalty for apostasy under Islamic law?
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Yadda

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Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #28 - Sep 30^th, 2011 at 9:49am

falah wrote on Sep 29^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

If people want to claim to be true worshippers of God Almighty, they should follow what they believe God commands them to do.

YES, 'they' should.

e.g.
"Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother."
Matthew 19:16-19

Moslems should note the underlined verses.
[According to God's law, Mohammed was an adulterer AND a fornicator.]

All of those commandments, above, were quoted by Jesus, directly from the book(s) of the law, the Torah,
Exodus 20:12-16
Deuteronomy 5:16-20

And what was Jesus 'message' ?
#1, Love God. Matthew 22:36-37
#2, Obey God's laws, study the scriptures. Matthew 19:16-19, John 14:15-21, Luke 24:45
#3, Love your fellow man. Matthew 22:39, Leviticus 19:18

Matthew 22:36
Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.ifalah wrote on Sep 29^th, 2011 at 9:47pm:

Would you prefer to refer to the Bible for guidance?

Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-9:

"If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods, do not yield to him or listen to him.

Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death

, and then the hands of all the people."

How about Deuteronomy 17:3-5:

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, .....

and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die.

"

falah,

You are a great one for quoting the OT.

But do you yourself, understand what those verses mean, and to whom those laws apply ???

Those verses apply ONLY to those people who had entered into a solemn covenant with their God.

+++

Numbers 30:2
If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.

falah,

The Hebrew people, were chosen by God, to be a separate, and holy people;

Leviticus 20:24
...I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

And, it is recorded [in the books of Moses] that after being redeemed from bondage in Egypt, the Hebrew people entered into a covenant with their holy God.

Dictionary;
covenant = =
1 a solemn agreement.
2 [theology] an agreement held to be the basis of a relationship of commitment with God.

And, the agreement [consent] of the people, was recorded;

"...And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."
Exodus 19:5-8

As part of their covenant with God, God demanded that those children of Jacob [Israel], who were in-covenant with him, and who wilfully broke their covenant, should be executed, as covenant breakers.

Harsh?

Yes.

But any Hebrew could simply separate himself from his people [and, separate himself from his God], and go into the world, and join himself, to the world.

But he could not remain among a holy people [the children of Israel] as a covenant breaker, because the covenant with God demanded that those who wilfully broke their covenant, with God, must be killed.

BUT, God gave no person, not even his 'special' Hebrew people [Jews today], a sanction, to murder people, or to persecute anyone, because they were not Hebrews [or, Jews today].

It is clear [in studying the books of Moses] that the violent judgements in the OT [the books of Moses], were directed exclusively against;
1/ only Hebrew covenant breakers, and,
2/ those people who are wicked, oppressors, and common criminals [i.e. anyone, everyone, could be caught in this category, dependant upon their conduct].

+++

And i have already explained ALL of this, here;

"more muslim daily madness"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1238715411/458#458

falah,

Will you express any contrition now, for having misrepresented God's law ???
/sarc off

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Posts: 20956
A cat with a view

Re: Abu and Les deflecting death for apostasy
Reply #29 - Sep 30^th, 2011 at 11:32am

Yadda wrote on Sep 30^th, 2011 at 9:49am:

BUT, God gave no person, not even his 'special' Hebrew people [Jews today], a sanction, to murder people, or to persecute anyone, because they were not Hebrews [or, Jews today].

falah,

If what i have said is correct, then moslems [who kill moslem apostates]

....are murderers

.

Because moslems, first compel people [through persecution] to become moslems, and then murder them when/if they renounce ISLAM.

ISLAM has always claimed to be an Abrahamic faith....

But not even God's covenant people, the Hebrew's, ever had a sanction, to murder people, or to persecute anyone, because they were not Hebrews [or, Jews today].

+++

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Exodus 22:21
Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him...

Exodus 23:9
Also thou shalt not oppress a stranger...

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

Leviticus 25:47-49
[these verses clearly speak of [and reveal that it was entirely 'lawful'] for Hebrews [themselves] to become bond servants [slaves], to prosperous strangers living among the Hebrews.]

Deuteronomy 1:16
And I charged your judges at that time, saying, Hear the causes between your brethren, and judge righteously between every man and his brother, and the stranger that is with him.

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger
, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Deuteronomy 24:17
Thou shalt not pervert the judgment of the stranger, nor of the fatherless; nor take a widow's raiment to pledge:
18 But thou shalt remember that thou wast a bondman in Egypt, and the LORD thy God redeemed thee thence: therefore I command thee to do this thing.

Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Romans 12:9
Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Romans 12:18
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Hebrews 12:14
Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

+++

It was ISLAM alone, which criminalised the unbelief of 'unbelievers', and 'legitimised' their persecution....

"Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves....."
Koran 48.29

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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