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do Muslim countries exist? (Read 2761 times)
freediver
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do Muslim countries exist?
Sep 8th, 2011 at 9:48pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 7th, 2011 at 9:03pm:
Ok.. perhaps you can start by explaining to me why 3 of the largest Muslim countries in the world have already had female heads of state, whilst the U.S still have not? And Australia only recently did, and it was by default when the former PM was ousted?


Can you explain this please Abu? Whenever anyone else uses a modern country as an example of Islam, you insist that there is no such thing as a Muslim country and so it cannot possibly reflect badly on Islam. Yet here you are doing the same thing yourself.

Do Muslim countries only exist when you think you can spin it your way?
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Yadda
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #1 - Sep 8th, 2011 at 11:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 8th, 2011 at 9:48pm:
abu_rashid wrote on Sep 7th, 2011 at 9:03pm:
Ok.. perhaps you can start by explaining to me why 3 of the largest Muslim countries in the world have already had female heads of state, whilst the U.S still have not? And Australia only recently did, and it was by default when the former PM was ousted?


Can you explain this please Abu? Whenever anyone else uses a modern country as an example of Islam, you insist that there is no such thing as a Muslim country and so it cannot possibly reflect badly on Islam. Yet here you are doing the same thing yourself.

Do Muslim countries only exist when you think you can spin it your way?





FD,

'Moslem' countries only exist in YOUR head.




Abu does not associate himself with Iranian moslems.

Abu does not associate himself with Saudi moslems.

You see those miscreants are not 'real' moslems.

They are merely 'moslem' miscreants [moslem 'impersonators'] who have brought ISLAM into disrepute.

And, there are even Australian moslem 'impersonators'.

e.g.
06 May 2007
Mosque violence Tensions boil over after move to replace imam

Paul Maley
A BITTER factional feud within Canberra's Islamic community has erupted into violence with a leading member being punched repeatedly in the grounds of the mosque at Yarralumla.
Secretary of the ACT Islamic Society Kurt Kennedy said he was set upon shortly after announcing the appointment of a new imam to replace the controversial Mohammed Swaiti.
He was assaulted while waiting on the mosque grounds for a lift home after announcing Mr Swaiti had been dumped and naming the new imam as Yahya Atay.
......"When our secretary Kurt Kennedy announced ... the new imam will deliver the [Friday speech] before prayer, two people jumped up and grabbed Kurt and pushed him around," he told the Canberra Sunday Times.
"They pushed him and wanted to throw him out of the mosque.
"Then the imam [Mr Swaiti] started screaming in the middle of the mosque, 'I am the imam of this mosque! I am the imam who will service you people! I will never step down! No one can force me to step down! I will be here until the day I die!" '

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/mosque-violence-tensions...



All that i can say, is that it is very luckily, that those Canberra moslems didn't have access to AK47's !!!!!!
/sarc off

Such incidents are not a good look, for 'tolerant', 'harmonious', ISLAM.
/sarc off



You see, it is certain FD, .....that Abu is the only 'REAL', 'rightly guided' moslem, in Australia.

Only Abu, knows how to 'rightly' follow Allah, and the prophet.

It is certain.

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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #2 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 9:51am
 
You need to grap the idea that there is a difference between "Muslim" and "Islamic".

"Muslim" refers to the individual person. "Islamic" refers to the system.

There are countries with Muslims in them like Saudi Arabia. But countries like Saudi Arabia are not currently ruled Islamically because the government has deviated from Islamic law.

Iran is not even run by Muslims, but is actually run by Shi-ite clerics, whose teachings run counter to Islam.
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #3 - Sep 9th, 2011 at 5:51pm
 
So shites are considered apostates?
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abu_rashid
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #4 - Sep 10th, 2011 at 11:36am
 
Quote:
Can you explain this please Abu? Whenever anyone else uses a modern country as an example of Islam, you insist that there is no such thing as a Muslim country and so it cannot possibly reflect badly on Islam. Yet here you are doing the same thing yourself.


As Falah mentioned, you've mixed up between "Islamic state" and "Muslim country", in this case I clearly stated the latter.
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freediver
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #5 - Sep 10th, 2011 at 4:37pm
 
Abu, did you make the same distinction when other people used the term 'Muslim country' instead of 'Islamic state'? Is your post meant to be some kind of defence of Islam? I'm pretty sure you have always insisted that people cannot make any kind of valid comparison with Muslim countries because they are not Islamic states. Other people have made the same kind of comparison as you, but you have always rejected it instead of acknowledging the obvious.

Were you actually pointing out how wonderful democracy is because it allowed women to become the head of state despite a fairly misogyinistic muslim population?

I'm not sure why you brought this up, given that you would prefer to restore the Islamic system instead that bans genuine democracy and prevents women becoming the head of state.

Also, what are the three countries?
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abu_rashid
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #6 - Sep 10th, 2011 at 4:51pm
 
Quote:
I'm pretty sure you have always insisted that people cannot make any kind of valid comparison with Muslim countries because they are not Islamic states.


No... I said you cannot blame Islam for what they implement. Which would go without saying....

Quote:
Also, what are the three countries?


How about we make researching that your little project?
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #7 - Sep 10th, 2011 at 5:13pm
 
Abu if you can't back up your claim, just admit you were wrong.

Quote:
No... I said you cannot blame Islam for what they implement. Which would go without saying....


But you were happy to accuse the west of banning women from driving because a bunch of Jews in New York freely chose to live under very conservative standards.

You were happy to blame 'people like me' for violent extremism arising.

You still have not explained what your purpose was with that statement, other than to give islam the credit. Were you actually pointing out how wonderful democracy is because it allowed women to become the head of state despite a fairly misogyinistic muslim population?

Would you prefer to restore the Islamic system instead that bans genuine democracy and prevents women becoming the head of state?

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abu_rashid
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #8 - Sep 10th, 2011 at 7:55pm
 
The topic matter was Muslim countries, and that is purely what my statement was related to.

Let me put it in simpler terms for you fd.

Tsfen said: "X countries strip women of all their rights"

I said: "Explain to me then how 3 of X countries have had female heads of state, when the leader of the Western world still hasn't".

It doesn't matter what "X countries" are, they can be an unnamed entity for all I care. Nowhere did Islam play any part in the discussion, contrary to your wishes.
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #9 - Sep 10th, 2011 at 8:39pm
 
Actually, Tsfen did not say countries and he did not say Muslim, he said middle eastern culture. You responded with the example of Muslim countries, probably none of which are middle eastern, and the qualities you held up as a good example are the same ones you would criticise these countries for in rejecting Islam. You say it does not matter what "X ciountries" are, but surely it matters if it was "Y culture" instead?

Tsfen wrote on Sep 7th, 2011 at 8:57am:
Valid question Abu, to clarify, I meant this in a more general context of those countries restricting the rights of women, not just their legal right to operate a motor vehicle. I did this because I think that this discussion extends beyond the scope of women driving and goes further into womens rights in middle eastern culture as compared to that of western culture. In either case it was a fairly minor point compared to the rest of what I said.


abu_rashid wrote on Sep 7th, 2011 at 9:03pm:
Ok.. perhaps you can start by explaining to me why 3 of the largest Muslim countries in the world have already had female heads of state, whilst the U.S still have not? And Australia only recently did, and it was by default when the former PM was ousted?


BTW, what are those three countries? Were you making it up?
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abu_rashid
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #10 - Sep 11th, 2011 at 12:17am
 
Quote:
Actually, Tsfen did not say countries and he did not say Muslim, he said middle eastern culture.


I think we all know what he meant... do you think he was referring to Israel? I don't think so. He was quite clearly referring to Muslim countries.

Either way, nowhere did I state that an Islamic state would have a female head of state, nor that this discussion had any bearing on what Islam teaches, this was purely pulled out of your fantasy bin, as you obviously thought it validated some misconception of yours. In Islam this is categorically rejected, and a female cannot be head of state.

Quote:
BTW, what are those three countries? Were you making it up?


Yeh... I was making them up.
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #11 - Sep 11th, 2011 at 9:52am
 
Abu, you show enourmous flexibility in 'interpretting' what other people obviously meant. But you get very picky about what you mean. To me it seems obvious he was referring to middle eastern culture. After all, yous tarted the thread by comparing 'the west' to Saudi Arabia.

Quote:
In Islam this is categorically rejected, and a female cannot be head of state.


Can you explain why you brought it up then? If 'Muslim countries' was what he obviously meant to say (rather than what he actually said) what is the point of bringing this up, apparently in defence of Muslim countries in general, when it goes against Islam? Are you suggesting it is a good thing that Muslim countries are discarding Islamic teachings and progressing?
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abu_rashid
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #12 - Sep 11th, 2011 at 10:34am
 
Quote:
After all, yous tarted the thread by comparing 'the west' to Saudi Arabia.


I didn't make any comparison at all. I merely pointed out the West do not permit women to drive in certain places.

Nothing to do with Saudi Arabia.

Quote:
Can you explain why you brought it up then?


Again, I didn't bring it up, I merely countered that tsfen was inaccurate in their assessment of Muslim countries.

As I said, it wouldn't matter if they were speaking about Eskimoes, the point is still there to be made. Nowhere did I state anything remotely like "Islam says this or that", why you insist it is the case is beyond me. It does appear you will goto any length to win (so you think anyway) some points.

Quote:
apparently in defence of Muslim countries in general,


To point out the ignorance. No defence at all. Why would I defend the puppet governments of Muslim countries, when I've stated on numerous occasions I consider them illegitimate?

If tsfen had said "Muslim countries don't permit alcohol" I would also point out it is incorrect, as in most Muslim countries it is permitted, in no way does it suggest I agree with or am "touting" this as a positive aspect, merely pointing out the inaccuracy of someone's statements. Really I'm at a loss to understand your thinking sometimes.

Quote:
Are you suggesting it is a good thing that Muslim countries are discarding Islamic teachings and progressing?


Why does everything have to be in terms of defending for you? A point cannot be exposed as wrong, without it having some hidden reason for trying to defend or promote something.

You're just becoming tiresome really.
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Re: do Muslim countries exist?
Reply #13 - Sep 11th, 2011 at 7:27pm
 
Quote:
I didn't make any comparison at all. I merely pointed out the West do not permit women to drive in certain places.


Oh really. Can you explain what you meant by this then?

Quote:
The point in posting it is to highlight the West's hypocrisy in what they focus on.


Quote:
Again, I didn't bring it up, I merely countered


OK then, you are the one who countered with it. Same thing. Tsfen brought up middle eastern culture, you 'countered' with 'Muslim countries'.

Quote:
Nowhere did I state anything remotely like "Islam says this or that", why you insist it is the case is beyond me.


I insist it because it is true, and you agree with me on that.

Quote:
To point out the ignorance. No defence at all.


But you cannot even list the three countries you used as an example.

Quote:
Why would I defend the puppet governments of Muslim countries


That is what I am asking you Abu. I cannot also answer for you.

Quote:
Why does everything have to be in terms of defending for you?


It doesn't. It was just unusual to see you doing anything else. Hence my question. If I had known it would take so long for you to say what you were getting at I wouldn't have bothered.

For example, I have asked you many times for the facts regarding very specific aspects of Islamic law. You countered that you won't tell me because the facts don't matter and it is more important for you to defend Islam, so you obviously can't reveal the facts to someone who might not carefully couch them in a way that makes Islam look good.
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