Australian Politics Forum - Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?

Sappho

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Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:42am

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 116

Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion,

and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Quote:

GEORGE WILLIAMS, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, UNSW: This is an important test case in the High Court of two major questions. The first relates to the ability of the Commonwealth to set up an office where there's a religious test for that office, and the second is a big battle about our federal system and the ability of the Commonwealth to directly fund certain activities without channelling that money via the states

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3290571.htm

Looking forward to the outcome of this High Court Challenge.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #1 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:47am

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:42am:

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 116

Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion,

and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Quote:

GEORGE WILLIAMS, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, UNSW: This is an important test case in the High Court of two major questions. The first relates to the ability of the Commonwealth to set up an office where there's a religious test for that office, and the second is a big battle about our federal system and the ability of the Commonwealth to directly fund certain activities without channelling that money via the states

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3290571.htm

Looking forward to the outcome of this High Court Challenge.

Ironic really, given that Australia's Head of State must also be the Supreme Head of the Church of England (its Fides Defensor).

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Sappho

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #2 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:00am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:47am:

Sappho wrote on Aug 14^th, 2011 at 10:42am:

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 116

Commonwealth not to legislate in respect of religion
The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion,

and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.

Quote:

GEORGE WILLIAMS, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, UNSW: This is an important test case in the High Court of two major questions. The first relates to the ability of the Commonwealth to set up an office where there's a religious test for that office, and the second is a big battle about our federal system and the ability of the Commonwealth to directly fund certain activities without channelling that money via the states

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2011/s3290571.htm

Looking forward to the outcome of this High Court Challenge.

Ironic really, given that Australia's Head of State must also be the Supreme Head of the Church of England (its Fides Defensor).

Quote:

Neither the Queen, the Governor-General, nor any State Governor has any religious role in Australia. There never has been an established church in Australia, either before or since Federation in 1901. Pursuant to the Australian Constitution the Commonwealth may not enact a law establishing or prohibiting the free exercise of religion.[39] This is one of the key differences from the Queen's role in the United Kingdom, where she is Supreme Governor of the Church of England.

Now back to these chaplains... If they are not allowed to preach and they are not allowed to counsel the students... why are tax payers spending more than 200 million on having Chaplains in Schools?

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional? Reply #3 - Aug 14^th, 2011 at 11:06am Yet another good reason why the British (English) Monarch is unsuitable for the role of Australia's Head of State... (1) She/he cannot be a citizen of Australia and (2) She/he must hold a religious office... But anyway... Back to Chaplaincy.
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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional? Reply #4 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 10:02am Get the bible bashing bastards out of our schools now. Disgusting that they were ever allowed in to spread their hateful religious bile in the first place.
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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #5 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 10:09am

mozzaok wrote on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 10:02am:

Get the bible bashing bastards out of our schools now.

Disgusting that they were ever allowed in to spread their hateful religious bile in the first place.

Of course, theres' nothing hateful in your little spray at those 'bible bashing bastards' is there? No, that's the 'right' kind of hate....

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mozzaok

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #6 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 2:09pm

Nope, not hateful, Wes, it is called righteous indignation.
There is also the not too subtle difference that my post is aimed at adults, while these god bothering proselytisers are targeting kids as young as four, and that is unequivocally wrong.

Believe in Jesus or you will burn in hell.
Yep, that is what these sick mongrels tell prep kids.
I am outraged that it was ever allowed.

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #7 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 2:14pm

Quote:

Believe in Jesus or you will burn in hell.
Yep, that is what these sick mongrels tell prep kids.
I am outraged that it was ever allowed.

LOL. I doubt it's worded like that.
A nicer and more accurate way of stating the message that they might push would be 'live a good, moral life or there will be consequences'.

Is that really such a bad message to give?

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... Gold Member Offline Posts: 23673 WA Gender:	Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional? Reply #8 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 2:20pm I'm no believer in the dogma associated with religions, but when you remove all the window dressing and just look at the core message they seek to deliver, I think it's definitely a positive infuence.
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mozzaok

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #9 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 2:50pm

Wrong wes, they preach more fear than love, and that is why I do not want them in schools.
If they just told the parables of Jesus, which is basically the ancient golden rule anyway, I doubt anyone would mind, but they do not.
Believe in jesus, have eternal happiness, do not, and receive eternal torture, that crap is unsuitable for even thinking adults, but to foist it on tiny kids, is totally wrong.

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #10 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 3:17pm

mozzaok wrote on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 2:50pm:

Wrong wes, they preach more fear than love, and that is why I do not want them in schools.
If they just told the parables of Jesus, which is basically the ancient golden rule anyway, I doubt anyone would mind, but they do not.
Believe in jesus, have eternal happiness, do not, and receive eternal torture, that crap is unsuitable for even thinking adults, but to foist it on tiny kids, is totally wrong.

'they' do, do 'they'? One does wonder how you know what 'they' all preach and the tone in which they do so.

If I didn't know better, I'd say your attitude smacks of prejudice, stereotyping and blind hatred of a defined 'other.' If that's the way you want to roll, that's cool, but it would be remiss of me to not at least point out the hypocrisy.

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mozzaok

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #11 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 4:00pm

I never said all, Wes, but I know for certain that one did.
I also know what religious people can be like, and while nearly all are very well intentioned, they are rarely suitable to interact with small kids, and discuss religious ideas with them, and even rarer where their particular religious bent would deliver positive outcomes for small kids.

I mean it shouldn't even be up for debate, school is for education, not for some religion to push their ridiculous belief systems onto tiny kids.

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Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional?
Reply #12 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 4:12pm

mozzaok wrote on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 4:00pm:

I never said all, Wes, but I know for certain that one did.
I also know what religious people can be like, and while nearly all are very well intentioned, they are rarely suitable to interact with small kids, and discuss religious ideas with them, and even rarer where their particular religious bent would deliver positive outcomes for small kids.

I mean it shouldn't even be up for debate, school is for education, not for some religion to push their ridiculous belief systems onto tiny kids.

Oh I agree - things as important as these should be for the parents to choose. But I will not disregard people, who may do a very good job, simply because they happen to hold religious beliefs. I never saw a chaplain/counsellor when I was in school, but I believe many other troubled souls did, and it helped them.

And I do not see as clear cut a distinction between established religions and trendy ideologies which do not attract the same 'flak' but are potentially even more damaging.

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barnaby joe Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1992 euchareena	Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional? Reply #13 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 5:32pm Quote: I mean it shouldn't even be up for debate, school is for education, not for some religion to push their ridiculous belief systems onto tiny kids. so would you agree with that with regards to secular religions too?
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Is the Chaplaincy program unconstitutional? Reply #14 - Aug 16^th, 2011 at 6:07pm barnaby joe wrote on Aug 16^th, 2011 at 5:32pm: Quote: I mean it shouldn't even be up for debate, school is for education, not for some religion to push their ridiculous belief systems onto tiny kids. so would you agree with that with regards to secular religions too? I'll bite, No such animal
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