All nations are entitled to protect their borders, even the Jewish state.
Worry about the science fiction if it ever becomes science fact.
And most of those so called 'Palestinians' who lived in the British Mandate left their homes in 1948 are either dead or in a nursing home.
And they are not carrrying molotov cocktails cutting through razor wire fences to get their old houses back.

Grey wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:16am:


But there is no contention from States who are protecting their borders though is there?
Maybe from extremist left wing organisations who think borders are a waste of time, but not from governments.
And looking at the photos of those people jumping the razor wire, they were neither unarmed, nor were they 'trying to get home'.
They weren't even alive in 1948, and if you asked them which house belonged to their grandfather, would they even know?
Blind Freddy can clearly see those punks were only there to cause trouble, and they got what they came for.

Grey wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 9:16am:


Given the history going back 2000 years that the Jewish people have with the region clearly shows otherwise.
And the 'Palestinian' people was not even a term even remotely thought of before 1900AD, as they were in the Ottoman Empire going back to Roman times.
The Jews fought three wars for independance from Rome in Judean and the Sumarian region during the second century AD.
This is a matter of historical record, so to suggest that the Jews links to the holy land are tenuous is quite incorrect.

chicken_lipsforme wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 11:27am:


For the record I'm not in favour of driving Israelies into the sea, though neither am I uncritical. But what i'm about here is being the Devils advocate.

Palestina is the name the Romans gave the region, but what's in a name?  Now can a religion have claims on land or is it a peoples claim? The DNA evidence, though contested ground, at the least indicates a middle eastern connection that has been considerably watered down, especially through the female lineage of the Ashkenazi; who in the early part of the 20thC comprised 97% of world Jewry.

It's quite telling I think that Zionists, surely in an effort to bolster up claims, actually took the step of banning the Yiddish language and forced Israels Jewish population to relearn ancient Hebrew. As an aside I think that was a tragic mistake that has done much to add to the state of conflict. Language is the depository of a peoples knowledges and experiences. Erasing 2000 years of history and putting a people back in a barbarous past is not a good idea.

Land claims that go back 2000 years MUST be considered tenuous. Do Italians have greater claim to England than the English? Or is it the Scots or Welsh who have the greater claim? Such questions are nothing but theoretical silliness.

No Jewish claims to Palestine are firmly rooted in the events of the 20thC. The millions of Jews who live there have been ill led by the most violent and racist of idealogues, people like Jabotinsky and Ben Gurion, but that is not their fault. Mostly they were driven by circumstance and the ordinary desire of reasonable people to be able to live in peace and security and they deserve to have and hang on to that... but so do the Palestinians. 

Grey wrote on Jun 17^th, 2011 at 1:14pm:


Palestina was but one of the regions, however there already was a Judea and Sumaria in the area as well.
The big difference between any potential claims made in England by Italians or Scotsman is markedly different to those made by Israel.
Why, because the Jews have always lived in the region.
Sure, most were driven away but many still remained.
The reality is Israel is going no-where.
The genie is out of the bottle and won't go back in for anyone.
And until the 'Palestinians' can learn to substitute diplomacy for peace, any dreams they have of Israel parting with any land will always remain a dream.
Because Israel knows full well about the record appeasement has had in history.
Only a few weeks ago a bright canary yellow schoolbus was hit with a Cornet anti tank missile fired from Gaza killing one 16 year old schoolkid and wounding others.
Would any country on the planet in the 21st century be inclined to negotiate large parcels of their land away in the hope that such acts of terrorism will stop?
I don't think so.

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The people of the region are the people of the region. Disregarding any gentic dilution the difference between Palestinians and Israelis/Jews is simply one of religion. Perhaps a better analogy would be the claiming of Nottinghamshire by Baptist descendants of the Mayflower 

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The propaganda of tit for tat violence is pointless. I don't think the solution IS a 2 party state. That would simply extend the conflict forever. Something along the lines of a federal system with Jerusalem as the Capital territory would be far more promising.

Israel may have to destroy Europe if its existence is threatened.