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Carbon levy has failed overseas (Read 23888 times)
Maqqa
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #45 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:44am
 
freediver wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 11:43pm:
No mechanism has cut emissions by that much. Not due to any failure of the mechamisms, but only due to politics. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make Maqqa. Do you think we are limited to what we have done before?



since no mechanism to get close to it therefore discussing it is simply a hypothesis

its like talking about man traveling at the speed of light

in theory you can do it but in reality there are no mechanism to allow you to do it.

I am driving at the point that by giving a range of up to 100% without qualification that there is no mechanism to achieve it suggests that the government's policies are capable - NOT BY A LONG SHOT
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #46 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:47am
 
No Maqqa it is not like that. It is quite easy to achieve.

Quote:
I am driving at the point that by giving a range of up to 100% without qualification that there is no mechanism to achieve it


But there is a quite simple mechanism. Taxes have been used in the past to achieve a 100% reduction.
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longweekend58
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #47 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:54am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:44am:
Quote:
FD, it remains however true, that the ETS has failed in the EU to reduce emissions.


Duh. If you establish a trading scheme that keeps the emissions constant, they will remain constant, rather than reducing. This is not a failure. Rather, it is a good example of an ETS doing exactly what is expected of it.

Does a 100 km/h zone fail if it does not keep speeds below 60 km/h?



Dont be a moron FD. the EU itselfs says that the ETS has FAILED in its stated targets regarding emissions. I know that you LIVE for the pedantic splitting of hairs but the EU itself has made that determination - a significantly more credible voice than yours.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #48 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:55am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:47am:
No Maqqa it is not like that. It is quite easy to achieve.

Quote:
I am driving at the point that by giving a range of up to 100% without qualification that there is no mechanism to achieve it


But there is a quite simple mechanism. Taxes have been used in the past to achieve a 100% reduction.



what???????????????
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #49 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:56am
 
longweekend58 wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:54am:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:44am:
Quote:
FD, it remains however true, that the ETS has failed in the EU to reduce emissions.


Duh. If you establish a trading scheme that keeps the emissions constant, they will remain constant, rather than reducing. This is not a failure. Rather, it is a good example of an ETS doing exactly what is expected of it.

Does a 100 km/h zone fail if it does not keep speeds below 60 km/h?



Dont be a moron FD. the EU itselfs says that the ETS has FAILED in its stated targets regarding emissions. I know that you LIVE for the pedantic splitting of hairs but the EU itself has made that determination - a significantly more credible voice than yours.



OK then longy, give me the numbers.
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cods
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #50 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:06am
 
can't really say for certain. Some things may get really expensive. Also, long term I probably will. Finally, the carbon tax has already made a difference because many people have made adjustments already in anticipation of higher prices. For example, anyone buying a house in the last five years or so would have considered that the cost of commuting a long distance is going to go up significantly.




x



doesnt matter how many arguments you come with for.. there are as many against.. as you say.... above.. people are now looking at the distance from where they work... I am thinking people that live in Wollongong and work in Sydney some during the hours when there is not public transport..or even in the outer burbs of Sydney...

as it is.. to move closer to place of work is also dearer..and the way Sydney is growing its ugliness and dysfunctional roads would mean more people more disaster..if they think people are going to go to and from work by bicycle.. and shop at the same time I think they are in for a rude shock..

so where does that leave the govt who are at the end of the day... demanding we find better way of getting by without power and petrol..

you seem to think its easy for people to move and live closer to their place of work..you must have a very good life.. thats all I can say.

you seem to have a great insight into what people are doing already... in which case we must have already made a significant difference to out 1.5% emmissions..so thats good news..

but like you I have cut back as far as I beleive I am able..so where does that leave us when the CARBON TAX increases everything beyond.. well at least my ability to pay for it.
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #51 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:12am
 
Quote:
as it is.. to move closer to place of work is also dearer..and the way Sydney is growing its ugliness and dysfunctional roads would mean more people more disaster..


So living closer to work would make congestion worse?

Quote:
you seem to think its easy for people to move and live closer to their place of work..


No. I think there are a lot of tough decisions to be made. And the best way to go about it is with a carbon tax.

Quote:
so where does that leave the govt who are at the end of the day... demanding we find better way of getting by without power and petrol..


No. It leaves them with higher petrol prices, not demands.

Quote:
but like you I have cut back as far as I beleive I am able..so where does that leave us when the CARBON TAX increases everything beyond.. well at least my ability to pay for it.


I think it will leave you better off.
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cods
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #52 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:13am
 
you say you dont use your aircon... but you havent got rid of it...

It does not emit GHG's just by sitting there in the wall. In fact getting rid of it would probably increase emissions.




THE POINT I WAS MAKING IS.... YOU CAN TURN IT ON AT ANY TIME AND MAKE ALLOWANCES FOR YOURSELF  " ITS DAMN HOT."

if the govt was genuine about saving the planet.. they would have stopped the manufacturing of these power/petrol driven machines.....

That sounds a bit extreme.



YET YOU DONT THINK ITS EXTREME THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING FORCED TO LIVE CLOSER TO THEIR WORK EVEN THOUGH THE COST IS HORENDOUS..AND QUALITY OF LIFE IS LOUSY..



if this was as big a deal as you keep promoting then the govt should make some EXTREME decisions..and not just leave it up to the poor people to have to choose what to do without..


I am all for GOVTS leading by example.

and that means booby giving up his plane... and rowing across the bite.. do him bloody good.. well I would allow a balloon
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #53 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:20am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:56am:
longweekend58 wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:54am:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:44am:
Quote:
FD, it remains however true, that the ETS has failed in the EU to reduce emissions.


Duh. If you establish a trading scheme that keeps the emissions constant, they will remain constant, rather than reducing. This is not a failure. Rather, it is a good example of an ETS doing exactly what is expected of it.

Does a 100 km/h zone fail if it does not keep speeds below 60 km/h?



Dont be a moron FD. the EU itselfs says that the ETS has FAILED in its stated targets regarding emissions. I know that you LIVE for the pedantic splitting of hairs but the EU itself has made that determination - a significantly more credible voice than yours.



OK then longy, give me the numbers.


Look them up yourself. the report came out earlier this year. After all if the ETS was such a success dont you think Gillard would be trumpeting it? Dont you think that with the major argument against it being that it doesnt work that she would trot out all the examples of success to counter it? Well she has! NONE. carbon taxes and ETS dont work. it is an idiotic idea in the first place. using a market-based system to counter a market-based problem was always going to be an expensive exercise in failure.

How did we reduce the massive air pollution problem predominatly from cars in the 70s? a tax? no. regulation. in australia after 1976 you simply couldnt buy cars that didnt pass certain limits. and it has become more stringent ever since. REGULATION and penalty is the only system that has ever worked in such matters.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #54 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:22am
 
Quote:
THE POINT I WAS MAKING IS.... YOU CAN TURN IT ON AT ANY TIME AND MAKE ALLOWANCES FOR YOURSELF  " ITS DAMN HOT."


Not sure what you are trying to say cods. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

Quote:
YET YOU DONT THINK ITS EXTREME THAT PEOPLE ARE BEING FORCED TO


No-one ios being forced to do anything. This is the big advantage of a tax.

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #55 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:23am
 
Quote:
After all if the ETS was such a success dont you think Gillard would be trumpeting it?


By trumpeting, do you mean promising you will give us one?
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Maqqa
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #56 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:24am
 
longweekend58 wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:55am:
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:47am:
No Maqqa it is not like that. It is quite easy to achieve.

Quote:
I am driving at the point that by giving a range of up to 100% without qualification that there is no mechanism to achieve it


But there is a quite simple mechanism. Taxes have been used in the past to achieve a 100% reduction.



what???????????????



EXACTLY what I said when I read it!

Can any name a tax system in the world that has achieve 100% in reduction or change in habits

In singapore they hang you for importing drugs and has that "death tax" reduced importation by 100%

I hear they have a few Aussies in Bali for the same thing
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longweekend58
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #57 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:26am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 11:23am:
Quote:
After all if the ETS was such a success dont you think Gillard would be trumpeting it?


By trumpeting, do you mean promising you will give us one?


You truly are obtuse at times and lately, all of the time. getting support for the carbon tax would be breathtakingly easy. just show us all the examples of how it works overseas. but there ARE no examples. the EU is now deciding to move to level 2 of their plan because their ETS has failed to have any impact on emissions whatsoever. not one iota.

so find us some examples of success - if you can.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #58 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:27am
 
Quote:
Can any name a tax system in the world that has achieve 100% in reduction or change in habits


A tax was used to achieve a 100% reduction in the use of white phosphorous in match sticks. A tax can easily achieve anywhere between a 0% and 100% reduction. I am still not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Quote:
the EU is now deciding to move to level 2 of their plan


Which is?
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longweekend58
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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #59 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:35am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 11:27am:
Quote:
Can any name a tax system in the world that has achieve 100% in reduction or change in habits


A tax was used to achieve a 100% reduction in the use of white phosphorous in match sticks. A tax can easily achieve anywhere between a 0% and 100% reduction. I am still not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Quote:
the EU is now deciding to move to level 2 of their plan


Which is?



that was REGULATION - not tax. seriously, do you know the difference between BANNING something and taxing it???
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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