Australian Politics Forum - Carbon levy has failed overseas

cods

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #30 - May 5^th, 2011 at 7:31pm

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 5:14pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 5:09pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 5:06pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 5:03pm:

BatteriesNotIncluded wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 5:00pm:

progressiveslol wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 3:03pm:

Abbotts policies allows for the market to drive green technology. Governments always fail and cost us more. They should get out of our way. Take labor for an example. What wasters of money they are.

You don't understand markets at all!
Go on, point to a free one!

You can't, because governments engineer them to suit their purposes of providing goods and services to the people! They can re-engineer them too.... so take a long walk buddy! Cheesy

I think you have to repeat year 11 economics dood! Do not pass GO, do not collect $200!! Shocked

...lastly, hand over the-electronic-equivalent-of-all-your-cones cos you've had enough!!!!! Wink

STOP CRYING GIRLFRIEND! Cheesy

Free??? Free what? I cant see any reference to free.

SO, WE'VE ESTABLISHED THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN FREE-MARKETS!

NOW I SIMPLY MAKE YOU TELL ME HOW ABBOTTS POLICIES MAKE THE MARKETS DO THE JOB HE WANTS THEM TOO!!!

DON'T RUSH WILL YA! Cool

We have only established that you make up your own words in peoples responses.

oh noes YELLOW CHICKEN IS COMING TO GET US ALL, HIDE QUICKLY! Grin

Man, I feel like I've just had a shot of pure ecstacy writing that! Wink

deadhorse.. I am b egining to think really nasty things for you.. you ruin every thread..WHY??????????????????

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cods

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #31 - May 5^th, 2011 at 7:37pm

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 6:52pm:

Maqqa wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 2:20pm:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/climate/carbon-levy-has-failed-...

THE carbon tax promised by the Gillard government is unlikely to have a significant effect on either the economy or the use of energy.

But there is some concern that the transition to an emissions trading system in three to five years time could bring a dramatic jump in the carbon price.

The experience in both Europe and New Zealand shows that simply putting a price on carbon has had little influence on behaviour.

Australia's leading climate change economist Warwick McKibbin said it had been established that the only carbon abatement in Europe had been the result of regulation and subsidies, which had boosted the use of solar and wind power.

"A carbon price is just a pure cost and gives you little incentive to avoid it unless you know what will happen in the future," he said.

He said a carbon tax was preferable to an emissions trading system, because it conferred greater certainty, but it was really only an interim step

The chief economist with the New Zealand consultancy Infometrics, Adolf Stroombergen, said the introduction of a carbon emissions trading system 18 months ago had brought some increase in energy prices but had little influence beyond that.

"It has added 3c a litre to the cost of petrol, but we'll probably see that go up 10c a litre over the coming week because of the Middle East. People have got used to prices going up and down," he said.

The Commonwealth Bank's chief New Zealand economist, Chris Tennant-Brown, said environmentalists would regard their scheme as "a bit of a disaster", with the change in price too small to generate change in behaviour.

Seems like a pretty silly analysis. Both a tax and a trading scheme can achieve anywhere between a 0% and 100% cut in emissions. How much it achieves depends on the price or allowable limits under a trading scheme. Whatever you set that at, it will achieve the emissions reductions at much lower cost than the alternatives promoted in the article. He might as well argue that speed limits don't work if you set tham at 200 km/h.

OK FD.. SO AFTER THIS CARBON TAX KICKS IN... WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CUT BACK ON USING...

I mean I am already cut to the bone... but you I am sure plan to go back to the push lawn mower..

get the old cycle out.. sell the cars..tell the wife no more dishwasher or dryer.. only one TV.. one computer.. if that eat more raw food cooking kills us.... or have you already done all that???.

so not sure what that leaves you to make all this difference you claim this TAX will make..I know you would have filled the pool in ages ago..lol.

I tell you what I cant think of a thing I can do I am not in a position to waste anything..and I am not alone

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freediver

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #32 - May 5^th, 2011 at 9:19pm

Maqqa wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 7:11pm:

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 6:52pm:

Seems like a pretty silly analysis. Both a tax and a trading scheme can achieve anywhere between a 0% and 100% cut in emissions. How much it achieves depends on the price or allowable limits under a trading scheme. Whatever you set that at, it will achieve the emissions reductions at much lower cost than the alternatives promoted in the article. He might as well argue that speed limits don't work if you set tham at 200 km/h.

The speed limit example does not stick if you look at the limits in Germany and Australia

The tax was never meant to anything near 100% so your example was only ever going to be hypothetical

The point is it does not work overseas in several countries so why implement it here?!

But it does work Maqqa. You are just incapable of telling the difference. My example was not 100%. It was between 0% and 100%. It is not hypothetical.

Quote:

OK FD.. SO AFTER THIS CARBON TAX KICKS IN... WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CUT BACK ON USING...

Probably not much. I have already cut back on GHG emissions 'embedded' in my lifestyle and habbits in anticipation of higher prices. Eventually I will probably make further cuts. Air travel especially once it comes under regulation.

Quote:

I mean I am already cut to the bone... but you I am sure plan to go back to the push lawn mower..

get the old cycle out.. sell the cars..tell the wife no more dishwasher or dryer.. only one TV.. one computer.. if that eat more raw food cooking kills us.... or have you already done all that???.

No cods. The beauty of the pricing mechanisms is that it targets the bigger cuts that are easy to make but have less impact on lifestyle. BTW, I already use my bike to commute to work fairly often. Air conditioning is another huge one. I almost never use the ones in this house.

Quote:

I tell you what I cant think of a thing I can do I am not in a position to waste anything..and I am not alone

It's funny how many ideas people can come up with once there is money involved.

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cods

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #33 - May 5^th, 2011 at 9:39pm

OK FD.. SO AFTER THIS CARBON TAX KICKS IN... WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO CUT BACK ON USING...

Probably not much. I have already cut back on GHG emissions 'embedded' in my lifestyle and habbits in anticipation of higher prices. Eventually I will probably make further cuts. Air travel especially once it comes under regulation.

Quote:

I mean I am already cut to the bone... but you I am sure plan to go back to the push lawn mower..

get the old cycle out.. sell the cars..tell the wife no more dishwasher or dryer.. only one TV.. one computer.. if that eat more raw food cooking kills us.... or have you already done all that???.

No cods. The beauty of the pricing mechanisms is that it targets the bigger cuts that are easy to make but have less impact on lifestyle. BTW, I already use my bike to commute to work fairly often. Air conditioning is another huge one. I almost never use the ones in this house.

Quote:

I tell you what I cant think of a thing I can do I am not in a position to waste anything..and I am not alone

It's funny how many ideas people can come up with once there is money involved.
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so if you arent going to cut back any more... what difference are you going to make to anything... isnt that the idea of this CARBON TAX... we are not doing enough... so they keep telling us..

this is the trouble they have implanted this idea that its BIG business that are the offenders.. if they hit the big guys with a straight out HUGE TAX there would be hell to pay.. the govt wouldnt last 5 minutes and they know it.. big business would sack left right and centre.

yet if we get all this malarki its all about saving the planet.. well who would dare to complain..we all know if we dont do something now we will all be gone in 10 years.. and hasnt the govt said they will compensate... what ever that means..

well so you wont be saving anymore you have done as much as you can do... and so have I... and I can only guess there are plenty more out there saying the same thing.... some of us are just a bit too old to ride a bike..

yet you say once money is involved they will find ways of savings...lol..

proves our point really this is all about MONEY.. not cleaning the air.. and saving the planet..

you know most of out food is processed at some stage of its life to get to our tables..even if its just packaging...so everything will be affected..

you say you dont use your aircon... but you havent got rid of it...

same with the bike. you havent got rid of the car...and catch the bus when it rains.

what about the dishwasher clothes dryer. petrol lawnmower.. whipper snipper... you might not use them as often as you once did... but they are still there.. and the shops are still selling them hand over fist.

if the govt was genuine about saving the planet.. they would have stopped the manufacturing of these power/petrol driven machines.....

and said look get fit.. do it like your grandad did it..

look this isnt a nice thing to say but some members of my family do not own a house broom... they use the vacuum cleaner all the time..

I shake my head when I think any of the younger generation giving up anything!!! I hope I live to see it.

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freediver

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #34 - May 5^th, 2011 at 9:51pm

Quote:

so if you arent going to cut back any more... what difference are you going to make to anything...

I can't really say for certain. Some things may get really expensive. Also, long term I probably will. Finally, the carbon tax has already made a difference because many people have made adjustments already in anticipation of higher prices. For example, anyone buying a house in the last five years or so would have considered that the cost of commuting a long distance is going to go up significantly.

Quote:

isnt that the idea of this CARBON TAX... we are not doing enough... so they keep telling us..

I am, as far as I can tell so far. But it is still over a year away.

Quote:

this is the trouble they have implanted this idea that its BIG business that are the offenders..

The impact of the tax will not be limited to big business. One of the advantages is that it spreads equally through the entire economy.

Quote:

well so you wont be saving anymore you have done as much as you can do...

There is plenty more I could do, but that is a long way down the track when the price is higher. The first cuts are the easiest ones to make.

Quote:

and so have I... and I can only guess there are plenty more out there saying the same thing.... some of us are just a bit too old to ride a bike..

There are always lots of options. I see more and more people commuting is enourmous vehicles every day. So there are obviously plenty who haven't done much at all.

Quote:

yet you say once money is involved they will find ways of savings...lol..

proves our point really this is all about MONEY.. not cleaning the air.. and saving the planet..

False dichotomy. The tax equates the two.

Quote:

you say you dont use your aircon... but you havent got rid of it...

It does not emit GHG's just by sitting there in the wall. In fact getting rid of it would probably increase emissions.

Quote:

if the govt was genuine about saving the planet.. they would have stopped the manufacturing of these power/petrol driven machines.....

That sounds a bit extreme.

Quote:

look this isnt a nice thing to say but some members of my family do not own a house broom... they use the vacuum cleaner all the time..

I shake my head when I think any of the younger generation giving up anything!!! I hope I live to see it.

There you go cods - you've found some changes already that can be made. I hope you offer them lots of advice when they complain about their electricity bill.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas Reply #35 - May 5^th, 2011 at 9:52pm Also cods, if you really have done all you can to reduce GHG emissions, chances are you will end up better off.
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cods

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #36 - May 5^th, 2011 at 9:59pm

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 9:52pm:

Also cods, if you really have done all you can to reduce GHG emissions, chances are you will end up better off.

yeah right... I should live so long.. they told us that when we got the $30 pw rise..we will see who is the best judge out of all this..if gillard hadnt been such a coward we should have had the details of this policy long ago...

btw fd now I have your attention how about doing something about those that persist in spoiling the topics..there are a couple on here who are just hell bent on proving how stupid they are.. yet they get away with it..

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas Reply #37 - May 5^th, 2011 at 10:02pm There is no rule against being stupid. Be careful what you wish for.
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Maqqa

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14% - that low?!

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #38 - May 5^th, 2011 at 10:41pm

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 9:19pm:

But it does work Maqqa. You are just incapable of telling the difference. My example was not 100%. It was between 0% and 100%. It is not hypothetical.

It is hypothetical because there are NO instances or example you can offer in practical terms that will reduce carbon emissions by 99%

you can't even offer a solution that cuts emissions by 20% let alone 10% therefore it's ALL hypothetical

the only reality is the difference will be alot closer to 0%

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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gizmo_2655

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #39 - May 5^th, 2011 at 11:18pm

I still think a tax like this is the wrong way to go about things...

Why not do it like they did for toxic fumes and soot??
Set a reasonable limit on emissions from the processes, tell the companies how it will measured.....and tell them they have x months to get compliant or face huge fines...

That way, the only ones punished will be the ones who aren't already doing everything possible to reduce their emissions...

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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freediver

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #40 - May 6^th, 2011 at 11:43pm

Maqqa wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 10:41pm:

freediver wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 9:19pm:

But it does work Maqqa. You are just incapable of telling the difference. My example was not 100%. It was between 0% and 100%. It is not hypothetical.

It is hypothetical because there are NO instances or example you can offer in practical terms that will reduce carbon emissions by 99%

you can't even offer a solution that cuts emissions by 20% let alone 10% therefore it's ALL hypothetical

the only reality is the difference will be alot closer to 0%

No mechanism has cut emissions by that much. Not due to any failure of the mechamisms, but only due to politics. I'm not sure what point you are trying to make Maqqa. Do you think we are limited to what we have done before?

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cods

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #41 - May 7^th, 2011 at 6:36am

gizmo_2655 wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 3:37pm:

Please delete wrote on May 5^th, 2011 at 3:00pm:

"Australia's leading climate change economist Warwick McKibbin"

LMAO. Talk about BIAS.

Why? Because he says the tax won't work??

"Warwick McKibbin (born 21 April 1957 in Sydney) is an Australian Professor of Economics at the Australian National University who works across a wide range of areas in applied policy. He has published more than 200 scholarly articles and several books and is internationally known for his contribution to global economic modeling."

That sounds like he might know..He has about the same qualifications as Ross Garnaut..

did he predict the greatest financial meltdown in our history?..

that just happened to be staring him in the face[ in hindsight]

I cant quite grapple with what the economy has to do with being an EXPERT ON CLIMATE CHANGE to be honest..

more and more we are being quoted economists on this topic..

is it because the scientists are now past their use by date?

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freediver

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #42 - May 7^th, 2011 at 8:33am

Quote:

did he predict the greatest financial meltdown in our history?..

Greater than the Great Depression?

Most economists predicted it, acted on it, and significantly reduced it's impact on our quality of life. That is why interest rates were so high for so long beforehand.

Can you explain why people expect economists to be able to predict the future?

Quote:

I cant quite grapple with what the economy has to do with being an EXPERT ON CLIMATE CHANGE to be honest..

Economics matters in considering the economic implications of our response. Do you think we should ignore the cost?

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas Reply #43 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:28am FD, it remains however true, that the ETS has failed in the EU to reduce emissions. and evrywhere else it has been tried it has had the same spectacular lack of results. so why try a tax that we already know will fail?
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freediver

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Re: Carbon levy has failed overseas
Reply #44 - May 7^th, 2011 at 10:44am

Quote:

FD, it remains however true, that the ETS has failed in the EU to reduce emissions.

Duh. If you establish a trading scheme that keeps the emissions constant, they will remain constant, rather than reducing. This is not a failure. Rather, it is a good example of an ETS doing exactly what is expected of it.

Does a 100 km/h zone fail if it does not keep speeds below 60 km/h?

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