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The Problem of Evil (Read 39646 times)
Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #30 - May 7th, 2011 at 6:35pm
 
Sappho wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:05am:
Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 10:55am:
Sappho wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 1:16am:
Yadda wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 8:49am:
God doesn't exist ???

Alternatively, because God is omnipotent, God is responsible for [allowing] the evil in men's hearts.


And yet... If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.





And yet, we humans are not automatons.


Dictionary;
automaton = =
1 a moving mechanical device made in imitation of a human being.
2 a machine which performs a function according to a set of coded instructions.



In this life, God shows us a good path, but God does not compel us.

If we were always compelled in all of our actions, we would be creatures with little or no understanding.

That is not God's intention or wish for us [i.e. that we should be creatures with little or no understanding].

In life, it is our experiences and our mistakes, which shape us.


You are confusing the concept of mistakes with the concept of evil. More than that, you are assuming that evil is caused by humans only. In both cases you are wrong.

Take for example a young couple in the late 20s and much in love. They have committed no acts of evil. They marry, get pregnant and give birth to a profoundly intellectually disabled child which will burden them their whole life... is a burden to them as we speak.

Now, your god knew this would happen, had the power to stop this from happening, had the morally desire to stop this happening... and did nothing.

There is no mistake in creating a human that will never experience their humanity or their free will... rather it is evil. It is not human evil. There is nothing they could have done to stop this because they lacked knowledge, until it was too late.

So why would your god allow this evil to occur?  


Anyway... let's get this back to the topic. Yadda at least is trying to defend his god and we should give him that opportunity instead of getting bogged down in off topic discussions.
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muso
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #31 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:17pm
 
If a part in a crane is worn, and the part fails, the crane topples over and kills people, is that part evil?

- Or perhaps it's the person who was supposed to have maintained the crane.

That person was actually taken off the job because of financial constraints. Was the accountant evil?

The company is going broke because of competing foreign interests, and the accountant thought he was doing the right thing by rationalising the maintenance program. Maybe it was the foreign interest where the evil lay?...but then, maybe not.

Is an eagle attacking a kitten evil?

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #32 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:24pm
 
muso wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:17pm:
If a part in a crane is worn, and the part fails, the crane topples over and kills people, is that part evil?

- Or perhaps it's the person who was supposed to have maintained the crane.

That person was actually taken off the job because of financial constraints. Was the accountant evil?

The company is going broke because of competing foreign interests, and the accountant thought he was doing the right thing by rationalising the maintenance program. Maybe it was the foreign interest where the evil lay?...but then, maybe not.

Is an eagle attacking a kitten evil?


Yes, we only assign a valency of evil to those acts that adversely affect humans (and sometimes animals)... And then only ones we like or with whom we can (at least in principle) empathise.... That's why a comet colliding with Jupiter is not an act of evil... It is instead an awe inspiring event.
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Yadda
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #33 - May 8th, 2011 at 2:46am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 2:10pm:
And that's really the point to the problem of evil... It's impossible to reconcile the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent being and the existence of evil... In a universe governed by such a being, evil existing (let alone prevailing) must necessarily be impossible.

In a world where evil exists god can be any 2, not all 3, but only insofar as we believe that misfortunes or outrages that happen to humans are necessarily evil.




Maybe God merely wants us to reveal how we will react to challenges.

That, is what the bible says is the purpose in our experiencing hardships in our life.

I have no reason to doubt that explanation.



+++

And we are not all, exactly the same.

Take two siblings.

They can often have very differing characters, even though they have grown up alongside each other, even though in many cases they have both been loved and nurtured to the same degree by their parents.

Why so [the differing characters] ?

Because they each have a different personality [an individual 'guiding' spirit], and we all do.



The Problem of Evil....

Why is one person 'good' ?

And his brother, 'evil' ???

When they both, have had the same 'opportunities' in life ???



+++


Isaiah 1:2
Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Jeremiah 4:22
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.




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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Yadda
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #34 - May 8th, 2011 at 3:08am
 
muso wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:17pm:
If a part in a crane is worn, and the part fails, the crane topples over and kills people, is that part evil?

- Or perhaps it's the person who was supposed to have maintained the crane.

That person was actually taken off the job because of financial constraints. Was the accountant evil?

The company is going broke because of competing foreign interests, and the accountant thought he was doing the right thing by rationalising the maintenance program. Maybe it was the foreign interest where the evil lay?...but then, maybe not.




We all make choices, influenced by our character.

Yes ?

And sometimes we make poor choices in life.

I sincerely believe that we will all make some, indeed many, poor choices.

IMO, each choice, though its consequences can sometimes be grievous to ourselves and others, is really a type of karmic feedback loop.

Even when we make poor choices, we can still 'profit' from them, karmic-ly.

Poor choices are 'opportunities', to improve ourselves [spiritually, imo].


+++

Proverbs 9:6
Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.
7  He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.
8  Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.
9  Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.
10  The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.







muso wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:17pm:

Is an eagle attacking a kitten evil?





My cat 'enjoys' killing all kinds fauna and vermin.

But i forgive her, because in killing, she is merely following [is compelled by] her nature.

Ruthlessly killing prey, is what she was 'made' for.


....and i'm just glad that i'm not the size of a mouse, or even a rabbit.      Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: May 8th, 2011 at 3:58am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #35 - May 8th, 2011 at 6:29am
 
muso wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:17pm:
If a part in a crane is worn, and the part fails, the crane topples over and kills people, is that part evil?

- Or perhaps it's the person who was supposed to have maintained the crane.

That person was actually taken off the job because of financial constraints. Was the accountant evil?

The company is going broke because of competing foreign interests, and the accountant thought he was doing the right thing by rationalising the maintenance program. Maybe it was the foreign interest where the evil lay?...but then, maybe not.

Is an eagle attacking a kitten evil?


I had no idea that the understanding of evil, and even the ability to track down that understanding of evil was so lacking in the members of this forum. Clearly, I assumed too much.

So... let's demystify evil, so that the debate on the Problem of Evil can continue.

Evil is defined as an intentional act of immorality which causes suffering and/or harm. So evil has three qualities... it must be intended... it must be immoral... it must have negative consequences of harm and/or suffering.

This narrows the focus of evil upon those with the capacity to understand morality and immorality at the time of the action. If you lack that ability to understand morality/immorality and intend an act which causes harm... you are not evil... most likely you are an animal hunting or a human who is mentally impaired either through age, genetics or insanity.

If a child of three shoots his brother dead... it is not evil because the child is mentally impaired due to age.
If a schizophrenic woman in the midst of an episode goes on a shooting spree... it is not evil because the woman is mentally impaired due to temporary insanity.
If a profoundly down syndrome man strangles another in a fit of rage... it is not evil because the man is mentally impaired due to genetics.  
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« Last Edit: May 8th, 2011 at 9:24am by Sappho »  

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muso
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #36 - May 8th, 2011 at 7:30am
 
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 6:29am:
Evil is defined as an intentional act of immorality which cause suffering and harm. So evil has three qualities... it must be intended... it must be immoral... it must have negative consequences of harm and/or suffering.



I just like to start with the basics.

OK, so for example, war is evil because it's intentional, it kills people  and it's immoral (who gets to decide that bit?)
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muso
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #37 - May 8th, 2011 at 8:00am
 
So would this be an example of evil?

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #38 - May 8th, 2011 at 8:22am
 
muso wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 8:00am:
So would this be an example of evil?

Yes, a smug, self-satisfied nutjob blithely turning her children into indoctrinated fools. Yes, there's an element of evil in that.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #39 - May 8th, 2011 at 8:29am
 
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 6:29am:
Evil is defined as an intentional act of immorality which cause suffering and harm. So evil has three qualities... it must be intended... it must be immoral... it must have negative consequences of harm and/or suffering.

It must be intended to cause suffering, I'm assuming.

I give a junkie $100.

I give a junkie $100 and ask him to use it for food.

I give a junkie $100 and ask him to use it for food, whilst believing he will use it to buy more drugs.

I give a junkie $100 and ask him to use it for food, whilst believing he will use it to buy more drugs and hoping he does.

Which is evil? How many of the above are evil acts?

Is the road to hell paved with good intentions?
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« Last Edit: May 8th, 2011 at 8:34am by NorthOfNorth »  

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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #40 - May 8th, 2011 at 8:37am
 
Yadda wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 2:46am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 2:10pm:
And that's really the point to the problem of evil... It's impossible to reconcile the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent being and the existence of evil... In a universe governed by such a being, evil existing (let alone prevailing) must necessarily be impossible.

In a world where evil exists god can be any 2, not all 3, but only insofar as we believe that misfortunes or outrages that happen to humans are necessarily evil.


Maybe God merely wants us to reveal how we will react to challenges.

Well then, your 'god' is sadistic. As your 'god' is omniscient he is aware of the negative and harmful effects of imposing the challenge on the one he knows will fail... He directs a human towards the path to hell.
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freediver
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #41 - May 8th, 2011 at 9:36am
 
Sappho wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 6:43am:
If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.  

source

Smiley


Sappho, would you really want to live in a world where evil was impossible?
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« Last Edit: May 8th, 2011 at 9:57am by Sappho »  

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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #42 - May 8th, 2011 at 9:56am
 
freediver wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 9:36am:
Sappho wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 6:43am:
If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.  

source

Smiley


Sappho, would you really want to live in a world where evil was impossible?


lol... That's a funny question to ask an atheist. You should a theist. Theists have an idea of a world without evil and they look forward to it... some call it paradise on Earth... some say it will come when the redeemer comes... others call it heaven... and other still call it Nirvana. (not an exhaustive list)

What kind of god would deny his creation their deep desire for a world without evil... if not an evil god?
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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #43 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:08am
 
Yadda wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 2:46am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 2:10pm:
And that's really the point to the problem of evil... It's impossible to reconcile the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and omni-benevolent being and the existence of evil... In a universe governed by such a being, evil existing (let alone prevailing) must necessarily be impossible.

In a world where evil exists god can be any 2, not all 3, but only insofar as we believe that misfortunes or outrages that happen to humans are necessarily evil.




Maybe God merely wants us to reveal how we will react to challenges.

That, is what the bible says is the purpose in our experiencing hardships in our life.

I have no reason to doubt that explanation.


To be challenged is not the same thing as suffering and harm resulting from evil.

Most challenges are acceptable and respectable challenges with not a hint of evil entailed.

So your point doesn't actually address The Problem of Evil. But it does show that we can have free will and be challenged in that without the need of evil existing.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #44 - May 8th, 2011 at 10:12am
 
Sappho wrote on May 8th, 2011 at 10:08am:
To be challenged is not the same thing as suffering and harm resulting from evil.

Most challenges are acceptable and respectable challenges with not a hint of evil entailed.

So your point doesn't actually address The Problem of Evil. But it does show that we can have free will and be challenged in that without the need of evil existing.

There is however, in the Abrahamic tradition, the Book of Job... Where god agrees to a wager with Satan who insists that if god inflicts suffering on the righteous Job, he will turn away from god.

And those inflicted sufferings are great and unquestionably evil in their intended sadism. (Although the poetry (in the rendered King James version of the Hebrew) of god's reconciliation with Job is majestic).
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