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The Problem of Evil (Read 10471 times)
Sappho
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The Problem of Evil
May 5th, 2011 at 6:43am
 
If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist.  

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Yadda
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #1 - May 5th, 2011 at 8:49am
 
Sappho wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 6:43am:
If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.
If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
Evil exists.
If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn't have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn't know when evil exists, or doesn't have the desire to eliminate all evil.
Therefore, God doesn't exist. 

source

Smiley




God doesn't exist ???

Alternatively, because God is omnipotent, God is responsible for [allowing] the evil in men's hearts.



Proverbs 15:28
The heart of the righteous studieth to answer: but the mouth of the wicked poureth out evil things.


Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10  I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.








All of our choices, have consequences.

Its not rocket science.

We are supposed to [God expects us to be] be smart enough to eventually figure that out.

Evil exists in the world, because most men refuse to accept responsibly for the consequences of their own choices.





We are all spiritual beings.

"We had thought that we were human beings making a spiritual journey; it may be truer to say that we are spiritual beings making a human journey."

Teilhard de Chardin


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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #2 - May 6th, 2011 at 1:16am
 
Yadda wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 8:49am:
God doesn't exist ???

Alternatively, because God is omnipotent, God is responsible for [allowing] the evil in men's hearts.


And yet... If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #3 - May 6th, 2011 at 10:55am
 
Sappho wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 1:16am:
Yadda wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 8:49am:
God doesn't exist ???

Alternatively, because God is omnipotent, God is responsible for [allowing] the evil in men's hearts.


And yet... If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.





And yet, we humans are not automatons.


Dictionary;
automaton = =
1 a moving mechanical device made in imitation of a human being.
2 a machine which performs a function according to a set of coded instructions.



In this life, God shows us a good path, but God does not compel us.

If we were always compelled in all of our actions, we would be creatures with little or no understanding.

That is not God's intention or wish for us [i.e. that we should be creatures with little or no understanding].

In life, it is our experiences and our mistakes, which shape us.




"It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities."

Professor Dumbledore to Harry.
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets - J K Rowling




+++

In human beings, God is reproducing himself.

The process is in progress, and is NOT yet completed.



Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:...

Psalms 5:4
For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.
5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psalms 37:1
Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.
2  For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

Proverbs 24:19
Fret not thyself because of evil men, neither be thou envious at the wicked;
20  For there shall be no reward to the evil man; the candle of the wicked shall be put out.

Proverbs 8:32
Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
33  Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
34  Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
35  For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
36  But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.


+++


Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36
Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40  As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.


Its not rocket science.



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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." Luke 16:31
 
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Sappho
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #4 - May 7th, 2011 at 9:05am
 
Yadda wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 10:55am:
Sappho wrote on May 6th, 2011 at 1:16am:
Yadda wrote on May 5th, 2011 at 8:49am:
God doesn't exist ???

Alternatively, because God is omnipotent, God is responsible for [allowing] the evil in men's hearts.


And yet... If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.





And yet, we humans are not automatons.


Dictionary;
automaton = =
1 a moving mechanical device made in imitation of a human being.
2 a machine which performs a function according to a set of coded instructions.



In this life, God shows us a good path, but God does not compel us.

If we were always compelled in all of our actions, we would be creatures with little or no understanding.

That is not God's intention or wish for us [i.e. that we should be creatures with little or no understanding].

In life, it is our experiences and our mistakes, which shape us.


You are confusing the concept of mistakes with the concept of evil. More than that, you are assuming that evil is caused by humans only. In both cases you are wrong.

Take for example a young couple in the late 20s and much in love. They have committed no acts of evil. They marry, get pregnant and give birth to a profoundly intellectually disabled child which will burden them their whole life... is a burden to them as we speak.

Now, your god knew this would happen, had the power to stop this from happening, had the morally desire to stop this happening... and did nothing.

There is no mistake in creating a human that will never experience their humanity or their free will... rather it is evil. It is not human evil. There is nothing they could have done to stop this because they lacked knowledge, until it was too late.

So why would your god allow this evil to occur? 
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #5 - May 7th, 2011 at 9:29am
 
So nature is evil?
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #6 - May 7th, 2011 at 9:49am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:29am:
So nature is evil?


If god created the natural world, and theists believe that god did create the natural world, then equally god created the evil resulting from the natural world.
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #7 - May 7th, 2011 at 9:53am
 
Is nature evil?
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #8 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:10am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 9:53am:
Is nature evil?


Is it evil for an all knowing, all powerful and morally perfect god to allow earthquakes and tsunami's of the kind that rocked Japan?

Is it evil for that same god to allow the tornado's that have rocked midwest USA?

Is it evil for that same god to allow cyclones of the kind that destroyed New Orleans?

I am not saying then that nature is evil. I am saying consistently that if god exists he uses nature, or allows nature to be used by other gods, to pursue evil acts.
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #9 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:38am
 
Quote:
I am not saying then that nature is evil.


You are not saying it isn't evil either. Do you think nature is evil? Or can you only apply your tortured logic to religion?
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #10 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:48am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:38am:
Quote:
I am not saying then that nature is evil.


You are not saying it isn't evil either. Do you think nature is evil? Or can you only apply your tortured logic to religion?


This is a stupid question because I never said that nature was evil. You are engaging a straw man Freediver... and conveniently ignoring what is being said.

No... I don't think nature is evil. I think that if god exists he uses nature for evil, or allows other gods to do that.

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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #11 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:50am
 
Quote:
You are engaging a straw man Freediver...


How so?
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #12 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:54am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:50am:
Quote:
You are engaging a straw man Freediver...


How so?


By engaging in a line of questioning that has nothing to do with The Problem of Evil. It is the Problem of Evil that is at question and not whether Nature is Evil.


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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #13 - May 7th, 2011 at 10:57am
 
So a line of questioning can be a strawman, even if it only extends to a single question?
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Re: The Problem of Evil
Reply #14 - May 7th, 2011 at 11:01am
 
freediver wrote on May 7th, 2011 at 10:57am:
So a line of questioning can be a strawman, even if it only extends to a single question?


Yes... if it does not address the question under analysis... if it draws the debate away from the question under analysis... It is a straw man.

Freediver, why did you raise the question about whether Nature is Evil? What has that question got to do with the Problem of Evil as expressed in the first post?
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