Australian Politics Forum - Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 50566 At my desk.	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #285 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:44am I know what you are referring to. I think you just accidentally reversed your meaning with an extra convolution.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #286 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:48am freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:42am: Pretty much. To be an atheist you have to reject all religion right? No, you can still be a Jain, a specific type of Buddhist or a type of Hindu (such as the Samkhya school of thought) You can also be a type of Pagan or a type of Animist.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #287 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:51am freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:44am: I know what you are referring to. I think you just accidentally reversed your meaning with an extra convolution. Read my post again. As you'd agree, (a) brevity risks misinterpretation and (b) precise definitions are crucial to explanation.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #288 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:52am freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:42am: Pretty much. To be an atheist you have to reject all religion right? Does it make sense to call a Chritian an atheist in contemplating Hinduism? I'm not sure why this is a problem. What's your next step? Atheism is a religion?
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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #289 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:05am Well nobody can speak for all, but I reckon the conventional atheist, does not believe in the conventional gods.
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Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #290 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:10am Quote: Do you 'reject' the existence of people who believe that God does not exist? No. Not exactly, but it's a convoluted way of expressing agnosticism. Belief is inextricable from faith. Racism is a belief system. If you believe in god/gods you're not an atheist.
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mozzaok

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #291 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:15am

I do not entirely agree Grey, I am an avowed atheist, most would consider me a militant atheist, and many a strong anti-theist, yet I can conceive of concepts of "gods" that I consider plausible.
Of course nobody would worship a god or create a religious doctrine around any of the concepts of god that I consider as plausible.

The sticking point is that so many religious imperialists take the acceptance that a god concept is possible, as justifying all god concepts as rational, when so obviously they are not.

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Sappho

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #292 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:16am

freediver wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:42am:

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What you seem to suggest is that whilst Theist can on a individual level decide which god/s they will believe in... so that Athena will be believed and Abraham's God will be not believed, but that an Atheist cannot.

Pretty much. To be an atheist you have to reject all religion right? Does it make sense to call a Chritian an atheist in contemplating Hinduism? I'm not sure why this is a problem.

You are using words as they are not intended. Atheism is the antonym of Theism. Of all the various theistic believes I have explored, none cause me to believe in any of them. I have not explored all theistic belief systems... but I have, because of my interest in Mythology, explored a great many and found I do not believe in any of them. In this context I identify as Atheist.

If ever I happen upon a Theistic belief system that I find believable... I will stop identifying as Atheist... no doubt, that will be the day that hell freezes over.

I neglected to mention that all Theistic belief systems have something in common... they are human constructs.

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Equally, you seem to suggest that there is something in common with them all... what is that?

Belief in a diety. It is the definition of theism - you can only define it that way because they all have it in common. It is not as Grey suggested the accepted of a recieved theology that they have in common, just the belief. This is why you are able to understand me when I talk about theism or even religion, without listing all the religions.

When I talk about a theistic belief system... I am talking about a deity that has particular qualities peculiar to that belief system. That is why I was at pains to point out that not all deities are the same, so cannot be grouped together and have belief or non belief decided upon collectively.

My argument goes towards deities and not religion... I spoke of Abraham's god, the goddess Athena and god Adonis as examples of the marked differences in deities.

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Finally... how on earth can you believe in God and be close to Agnostic? And what does that actually mean?

I think it is deism or pantheism. People who reject all the traditional faiths but still believe in some kid of god.

That is not agnostic... that is belief in a non theistic deity. Agnostics neither believe nor disbelieve... Agnostics don't know one way or another.

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The god they accept is the god you accept the possibility of when you think of yourself as an agnostic.

Of late... the only non theistic deity that I will entertain was created in a cogent fiction by Asimov. A computer created by humans is then put to the task of finding out how to reverse entropy which it achieves only after all light and life from that universe is extinct. And the last line from that fiction... 'Let there be light....'

I am yet to decide however which is the deity... that which creates light (the computer)... or that which creates the creator of light (humans.)

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #293 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:20am

It's funny how the vast majority of these debates about the existence or non-existence of god revolve around the atheist having to prove his position and not the theist proving his position.

In any field, the onus is on the those making the positive claim to prove it true. The skeptic can then come along and deconstruct the claim to see how tenable its foundations are.

Where are the religious folk here staking their claim?

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Sappho Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 1406 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #294 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:20am Grey wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 9:27am: Actually i think believing things is an awful bad habit that many of the worlds ills are attached to. Indeed... what is the nature of reality... isn't that what you are getting at?
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mozzaok

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #295 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:26am

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:20am:

It's funny how the vast majority of these debates about the existence or non-existence of god revolve around the atheist having to prove his position and not the theist proving his position.

In any field, the onus is on the those making the positive claim to prove it true. The skeptic can then come along and deconstruct the claim to see how tenable its foundations are.

Where are the religious folk here staking their claim?

lol, you noticed that.
We have had an ongoing debate here for years where some try to describe atheism as a religion, and they do have some points in that regard, which usually end up equating to model airplane builders also being a religion.
If you want some proselytising, start a conversation with yadda, he will quote scripture to you day in, day out if you let him.

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Postmodern Trendoid III

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #296 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:34am

mozzaok wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:26am:

Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:20am:

It's funny how the vast majority of these debates about the existence or non-existence of god revolve around the atheist having to prove his position and not the theist proving his position.

In any field, the onus is on the those making the positive claim to prove it true. The skeptic can then come along and deconstruct the claim to see how tenable its foundations are.

Where are the religious folk here staking their claim?

lol, you noticed that.
We have had an ongoing debate here for years where some try to describe atheism as a religion, and they do have some points in that regard, which usually end up equating to model airplane builders also being a religion.
If you want some proselytising, start a conversation with yadda, he will quote scripture to you day in, day out if you let him.

I had a few goes at asking Yadda but he merely quotes bible passages and then says "go your own way". Then there was Jan a few weeks back arguing that the world is made from 'geometry' and an 'eye'. Yet after questioning her how this fitted into to giving life meaning, and, how can it be empirically justified, I got silence.
Not very rigorous.

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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #297 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:52am mozzaok wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:05am: Well nobody can speak for all, but I reckon the conventional atheist, does not believe in the conventional gods. That's probably correct, but very few atheists are conventional.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #298 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:55am Postmodern Trendoid III wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:20am: Where are the religious folk here staking their claim? Well, maybe the belief in the existence of a god is not something that occupies their thoughts every waking hour, unlike some atheists.
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muso

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Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #299 - Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:59am

Sappho wrote on Apr 30^th, 2011 at 10:16am:

I neglected to mention that all Theistic belief systems have something in common... they are human constructs.

So is the Stock Market - so is money. In fact they are very similar to theistic belief systems in that if suddenly everybody stopped believing in them, they would have no affect on people.

Thinking back to the days of European colonialism, the ultimate sacrilege was when the natives burnt the money. They refused to drink from the poisoned chalice, which infuriated their conquerors. Money has always been the most powerful religion.

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