Australian Politics Forum - Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 50565
At my desk.

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #210 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:14pm

Helian, Grey and Sappho, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

Quote:

It may be said that atheists are permanently in the state of absence-of-belief-in-god, so long as no one infers from that that they are actively “believing-in the non-existence of god”.

Anything may be said, but that doesn't really answer the question does it Helian?

Quote:

OK, close enough... But really, non-belief in the existence of god communicates the absence of belief (i.e. it is not intended to communicate a "believing-in").

Sounds to me like you are trying to equate atheism and agnosticism. Hence the question

Sappho:

Quote:

To be honest... I just don't know... I don't know what it means to believe that god does not exist.

What does it mean to believe in things that don't exist?

Is there a typo in there Sappho?

Mozz:

Quote:

I actually posted a link to a TED talk which elaborated on this very subject, last year, but I did not bookmark it, so I cannot guarantee I will find it, but if I do, I will repost the link.

Are you using this? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?action=search

Grey

Quote:

'God' is defined in many different ways. To which 'god' are you referring?

I am not referring to any particular definition. Like I said to Sappho, feel free to qualify your answer any way you want. Not that I expect an actual answer from you. I can't imagine any traditional interpretation changing your answer. It seems like just another way to avoid answering a simple question.

Quote:

Why do you insist that atheists define themselves on your terms?

It is you who is doing the insisting. I am merely asking for clarification.

Quote:

We have made it very clear how we define ourselves.

I thought we were talking about the definition of atheism?

Quote:

anybody using the line 'you can only go there through me' is what I would call a blasphemer

Can you elaborate on what you mean by blasphemy?

Quote:

Now I think that's speaking as plainly and clearly what my atheist label means to me freediver.

You have at least partly explained what you believe, but not your definition of atheism, which is the part I have a problem with.

Quote:

Interestingly this is much the same way i regard capitalism. A good idea at the time.

You should start a new thread on that.

Sappho:

Quote:

I don't even know what it means to have an understanding of things which do not exist.
For example: Do you have an understanding of the non existence of "Oomglar the Moon Faced One"? If yes, what is that understanding? Answering that may help us to understand the non existence of God.

Perhaps it comes down to empathy - being able to understand where another person is coming from. Though not even that is necessary. Do you have difficulty understanding what a flying pig is?

muso:

Quote:

I'm a bit puzzled about your use of the term 'scientific' in this context, because you have a very narrow definition of what is scientific from what I remember. Do you mean tangible?

I mean subject to study through repeatable experiment.

Quote:

Can you give a context where someone might believe in God but not believe that God exists? If no, where is the mess?
I can give many. I don't think anybody disputes the fact that the moon exists, and some people worship the moon as a God. The term 'exist' is irrelevant in this case. It's all about belief.

I think you missed the point.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #211 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:37pm

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:14pm:

Helian, Grey and Sappho, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?

Sappho:

Quote:

To be honest... I just don't know... I don't know what it means to believe that god does not exist.

What does it mean to believe in things that don't exist?

Is there a typo in there Sappho?

Did I make reference to a typo Freediver or a matter of comprehension? I even explained that problem I am having with comprehension.

Again Freediver... Do you believe that Oomglar the Moon Faced One does not exist? If so, why so?

Riddle me that one and I might actually understand what you are trying to ask?

I notice too that I am not the only contributor grappling with comprehension, speculating this and that meaning and intention in you words. Soren seems to think that you are not referring to a 'belief in', but rather an 'understanding of'. Maybe he is right... although again... what he means by 'understanding something that does not exist' is still beyond me.

So again Freediver... would you do us the honour of explaining what the question actually means... unless of course... even you can't explain the meaning of the question... which your avoidance of an explanation seems to suggest.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 50565
At my desk.

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #212 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:39pm

There is no hidden meaning. Take it at face value, with the simplest possible interpretation.

Helian and Grey are not having trouble understanding it. They seem to understand it so well that they take the debate three chess moves forward, use that as a justification for not answering, then ask me to continue the debate from there without knowing what happened in the middle.

This is the comment I thought might have a typo:

Quote:

What does it mean to believe in things that don't exist?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #213 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:45pm

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:39pm:

There is no hidden meaning. Take it at face value, with the simplest possible interpretation.

The meaning is hidden to me Freediver. I see no simple interpretation. Please... is it so hard for you to appreciate that I just don't know what you mean and so help me to understand by explaining the question or presenting a question in a form that makes sense to me? I'm not playing stupid here... I genuinely don't understand your question.

Quote:

This is the comment I thought might have a typo:

Quote:

What does it mean to believe in things that don't exist?

I see no typo.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #214 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:52pm

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:39pm:

Helian and Grey are not having trouble understanding it. They seem to understand it so well that they take the debate three chess moves forward, use that as a justification for not answering, then ask me to continue the debate from there without knowing what happened in the middle.

I think they too are struggling to understand the question to the extent that they have assumed it is a nonsense question... a trickery of English form and structure. I'm not prepared to make that assumption. I believe that you believe that question is valid in form and structure.

But you need to explain what the question actually means... it is more complex than you would give it credit.

Here is the question again with that particular section I do not understand in bold. "Helian, Grey and Sappho, if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 50565
At my desk.

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #215 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:55pm

By people who believe that God does not exist, I mean like Dawkins, who claims to have proven that god does not exist. Although I'm not sure that is the whole story. In any case plenty of his supporters 'believe'. I also think the majority of atheists believe in their position, but some might switch to agnositicism if encouraged to think about it.

By atheist, I meant by Grey's and Helian's definitions. It was their attempt to redefine the term that prompted me to ask.

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Prevailing

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7169
Stop Men

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #216 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 8:16pm

There seems to be quite a bit of evidence that there has been hidden for 2000 years a secret hidden church set apart from what we understand as the Visible church who can trace their lineage all the way back through the ages to Origen of Alexandria and the very birth for the New Covenant itself. Many notable iconoclast movements such as the Paulicans, the Cathars/Albigenses, Waldenses, the Anabaptists and the Lollards are thought to be the remnant of the true Christian church throughout the last 2000 years. Interestingly enough their stories are often recounted in the writings of the Visible church - both Catholic and Protestant who marked them as Heretics, whilst they marked the Visible church as the being the embodyment of the writings of John the Revelator and the apostate or Harlot church. Just an interesting side of religious history most are not aware of.

Back to top

I condemn Male Violence Against Women
The Government Supports Gynocide
There Is Something Dreadfully Wrong With Men

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #217 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 8:31pm

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 7:55pm:

By people who believe that God does not exist, I mean like Dawkins, who claims to have proven that god does not exist. Although I'm not sure that is the whole story. In any case plenty of his supporters 'believe'. I also think the majority of atheists believe in their position, but some might switch to agnositicism if encouraged to think about it.

Ah... yes I see what you mean now. I disagree of course. I do not believe that Dawkins and his ilk have any proof either of Abraham's God existing or not existing. Logical impossibilities and inconsistencies which Dawkins is using to justify such a claim does not establish empirical proof. In fact... you cannot prove non existence through science... at best you can disprove or provide compelling evidence in support of a hypothesis and a hypothesis is always expressed as a positive statement, because the negative leads to issues in comprehension. Therefore, if science wanted to explore this issue, the hypothesis must be... 'That Abraham's God Exists'... As an aside, the most interesting part of such a study would be the methodology as it would be fraught with problems.

Curiously, there have been probability models created to establish the probability of Abraham's God existing... and the results find in favour of existence. Does that therefore mean that God exists? No. The validity of the criteria used to establish a likely probability are yet to be established.

So... what am I trying to say here? I understand your question as it pertains to Dawkins... but it is a nonsense, just as many of Dawkins claims about proof are a nonsense. At best Dawkins has compelling argument... but no proof.

In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of... it is about a lack of understanding.

I am atheist because I do not believe in or understand the logic of theists. It just doesn't make sense.

Quote:

By atheist, I meant by Grey's and Helian's definitions. It was their attempt to redefine the term that prompted me to ask.

hmmm... I'll have to go back and look at that.

Back to top

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

Life_goes_on

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 4772
400kms south of Yobsville, Qld
Gender: male

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #218 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 8:43pm

Years ago I said something like "I believe that she didn't....." in the staff room full of English teachers.

I got told off for "torturing english" and that "disbelief isn't a belief".

I can't say I've dwelled much upon it since, but their definition has worked for me.

All that's happening here is a stupid debate about the definition of just constitutes a "belief".

Back to top

"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.

IP Logged

mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #219 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 9:25pm Here is the Ted talk I mentioned. http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_science_can_show_what_s_right.html
Back to top	OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma! IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 50565
At my desk.

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #220 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 10:00pm

Quote:

I understand your question as it pertains to Dawkins... but it is a nonsense, just as many of Dawkins claims about proof are a nonsense.

I am not trying to establish the proof or otherwise of what people believe. I am just trying to establish waht they believe. Specifically, I am trying to get my head around the attempts to redefine atheism such that Dawkins etc cease to exist.

Quote:

In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of... it is about a lack of understanding.

So what are they then?

Quote:

I am atheist because I do not believe in or understand the logic of theists. It just doesn't make sense.

Are you an agnostic?

Quote:

I can't say I've dwelled much upon it since, but their definition has worked for me.

What was their definition?

Quote:

All that's happening here is a stupid debate about the definition of just constitutes a "belief".

Huh?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Prevailing

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7169
Stop Men

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #221 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 10:13pm

In the Inquisitions and purges of the Crusades one of the Albigenses denied that the Bible was the written word of God which was one of the reasons they were condemned and burned as the devils spawn to which the accused heretic scoffed that the Most High God does not contain his word in writings on animal parchment but had written it in the hearts of his elect with his Holy Spirit. Cool

Back to top

I condemn Male Violence Against Women
The Government Supports Gynocide
There Is Something Dreadfully Wrong With Men

IP Logged

Sappho

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 1406
Gender: female

Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation?
Reply #222 - Apr 28^th, 2011 at 10:28pm

freediver wrote on Apr 28^th, 2011 at 10:00pm:

Quote:

[quote]In answer to your question.. "if a person believes that God does not exist, are they an atheist?"... no they would not be atheist. Atheism is not about belief in... it is about not believing in... it is not about an understanding of... it is about a lack of understanding.

So what are they then?

Irrational fanatics... who also happen to be Atheist.

Quote:

Quote:

I am atheist because I do not believe in or understand the logic of theists. It just doesn't make sense.

Are you an agnostic?

No definitely Atheist. There is no theistic system, which I have explored, which I believe.

Edit: Thought I should point out that my answer above has a significant stipulation. I am identifying an immediate and direct relationship between Theism and Atheism... in that one negates the belief of the other. You cannot be an Atheistic Theist nor a Theistic Atheist.

It says nothing about God/s which may or may not exist outside of theist systems. And whilst the subject of Non Theist Gods remains undefined, I remain Agnostic.

Cool

Back to top

« Last Edit: Apr 29^th, 2011 at 12:08am by Sappho »

"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."

IP Logged

Grey Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5341 Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #223 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 12:52am Quote: Sic transit gloria mundi Monday, had Glorious spew on bus.
Back to top	"It is in the shelter of each other that the people live" - Irish Proverb IP Logged

It_is_the_Darkness Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4000 in a ReTardis Gender:	Re: Religion: A 21stC anachronism or mans salvation? Reply #224 - Apr 29^th, 2011 at 1:03am
Back to top	SUCKING ON MY TITTIES, LIKE I KNOW YOU WANT TO. IP Logged