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Greens Party lack economic credibility (Read 9328 times)
progressiveslol
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #30 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #31 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:31pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Once again I urge you, as a conservative nut, to preserve history properly. You'd think that is something you could actually do... ... ...
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progressiveslol
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #32 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:34pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:31pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Once again I urge you, as a conservative nut, to preserve history properly. You'd think that is something you could actually do... ... ...

It is history. What dont you like about the history?
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #33 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:36pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:34pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:31pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Once again I urge you, as a conservative nut, to preserve history properly. You'd think that is something you could actually do... ... ...

It is history. What dont you like about the history?


Because it neglects the actual events that led to that statement. Want to try again, or doesn't the brain register past partisan based slogans? Shame Sad
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progressiveslol
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #34 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:43pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:36pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:34pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:31pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Once again I urge you, as a conservative nut, to preserve history properly. You'd think that is something you could actually do... ... ...

It is history. What dont you like about the history?


Because it neglects the actual events that led to that statement. Want to try again, or doesn't the brain register past partisan based slogans? Shame Sad

Why dont you put the global ....... on record.

Still does not change history.
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #35 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:56pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:43pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:36pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:34pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:31pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Once again I urge you, as a conservative nut, to preserve history properly. You'd think that is something you could actually do... ... ...

It is history. What dont you like about the history?


Because it neglects the actual events that led to that statement. Want to try again, or doesn't the brain register past partisan based slogans? Shame Sad

Why dont you put the global ....... on record.

Still does not change history.


It doesn't change ur baseless statement, I can agree to that.  But it definitely changes history.

And it isn't just the GFC I'm referring to.
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progressiveslol
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #36 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:58pm
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:56pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:43pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:36pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:34pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:31pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Once again I urge you, as a conservative nut, to preserve history properly. You'd think that is something you could actually do... ... ...

It is history. What dont you like about the history?


Because it neglects the actual events that led to that statement. Want to try again, or doesn't the brain register past partisan based slogans? Shame Sad

Why dont you put the global ....... on record.

Still does not change history.


It doesn't change ur baseless statement, I can agree to that.  But it definitely changes history.

And it isn't just the GFC I'm referring to.

Well come on then. Tell me where the history is wrong and where my statement is baseless. You have the chance to re-write history or tell the truth.

The floor is yours.
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Prevailing
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #37 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 2:10pm
 
Maqqa wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 5:48pm:
Lets think about this logically.....

Brown says he does not want to punish households but he wants to punish big business by putting a tax on them

But he has not given an workable solutions

Here are some facts Bob Brown

(1) ANY tax you put on a business will be passed onto consumers ie the Carbon Tax will hit householders

(2) So you are NEVER going to punish big business unless you can pass a law that stops them from passing on the additional tax


So on one hand you scream about helping households - but on the other hand you are doing everything you can to punish them!!

I could frack up big business - just abolish the competition policy act, raise Tariffs and sup[port small business. Cool
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sir prince duke alevine
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #38 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 2:11pm
 
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:58pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:56pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:43pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:36pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:34pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:31pm:
progressiveslol wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:30pm:
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:28pm:
bridonta wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 1:26pm:
Extreme people just don't have any essential in economic


explains Abbott and his right loon sidekicks to a tee.

And yet liberals get us into record surpluses and labor gets us into deficits in record time  Wink

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Once again I urge you, as a conservative nut, to preserve history properly. You'd think that is something you could actually do... ... ...

It is history. What dont you like about the history?


Because it neglects the actual events that led to that statement. Want to try again, or doesn't the brain register past partisan based slogans? Shame Sad

Why dont you put the global ....... on record.

Still does not change history.


It doesn't change ur baseless statement, I can agree to that.  But it definitely changes history.

And it isn't just the GFC I'm referring to.

Well come on then. Tell me where the history is wrong and where my staement is baseless. You have the chance to re-write history or tell the truth.

The floor is yours.


1. As you brought it up: the GFC was the main reason why the government went into deficit.  I won't pretend to sit around and say that "had the GFC not happened" we'd have surpluses continually, because I am not into predicting something that can't be changed. But when stating your pathetic little slogan, at least explain WHY the government decided it was necessary to go into deficit.

2. Liberals would've gone into deficit too, had they been in power.  They admitted it and released their own policies showing it to be true.

3. Prior to the mass reforms that occured thanks to Keating and Hawke, what surpluses were the Liberals generating? I'm sorry... ... ... remind me of that blissful figure that Howard as treasurer left this country?  I forget it...

4. The mining boom occurred during Howard's time, and the debt was largely paid off by the simple sell of off Telstra, which led to the great period in our time where the telecommunications industry was competitive and giving us benefits like nothing else...Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

5. Coalition slashed and saved, and provided the surplus at the expense of things such as education (HECS going up), Health ($1 Billion dollar cut), low income welfare, skills investment, infrastructure,

6. The surplus was that important that each time Howard tried to actually do any reform we had levies imposed on us. "There isn't enough money for this, but we have a 22Billion dollar surplus."  Well done.

7. While government debt decreased, household debt went THROUGH THE ROOF.  From 3 x household income, to 6.8 times household income.  


Look forward to seeing you completely ignore this and go back to your partisan little slogan.   "Oh, uh, but, the Coalition always have a surrpllusss."  Grin Grin Grin Grin

Isn't it time you started to wave your fist in the air and grump, "What about me?"

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


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« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2011 at 2:36pm by sir prince duke alevine »  

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freediver
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #39 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 9:58pm
 
Maqqa wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 8:51pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 7:02pm:
Given that the Greens are being credited with driving the biggest economic reform of our generation, and it is backed by an economic consensus, it is kind of hollow to claim they lack economic credibility.


This is an economic reform and you think there's an economic consensus?


Yes Maqqa. Every economist I have spoken to is on board. It is undergraduate stuff.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/economics-hopeful-science.html

Quote:
It's a TAX! Calling it reform does not change the fact that its a TAX!


Yes Maqqa I realise it is a tax. I am not trying to hide this.

Quote:
Keneally took it to the polls and the economic consensus is NO CARBON TAX!


No Maqqa. You obviously don't have your finger on the pulse of NSW politics. This was explained to you in the other thread.

Quote:
And how will this tax that isn't a tax change the air?


By changing prices. You do understand that prices affect consumption don't you chicken?
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #40 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:16pm
 
chicken_lipsforme wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 9:55am:
astro_surf wrote on Apr 4th, 2011 at 5:53pm:
You do realise that households will be compensated, no? And pricing carbon is more than just a stick to beat big emitters with, it's a price signal that will induce big emitters to look at ways to reduce emissions while stimulating capital investment into clean tech.
You economic alarmists really do miss the bigger picture.


So big business is taxed and passes on the cost to the householder, and then householders are compensated.
Is that the 'big picture' that economic alarmists need to understand?
Where is that 'big stick' again, and how will this induce big business to do anything?
And how will this tax that isn't a tax change the air?
Looks like more Labor smoke and mirrors to me.


Some businesses will pass on the costs, others will get smart and develop means of producing the same product at a lower cost and undercut the dinosaurs, hopefully pricing them out of the market. Meanwhile, by correcting the imbalance bewteen the price of renewables and fossil fuels will make investment in clean technology more attractive.
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Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 11:23am:
So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea nice person.&&
 
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Maqqa
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14% - that low?!

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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #41 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:34pm
 
astro_surf wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:16pm:
Some businesses will pass on the costs, others will get smart and develop means of producing the same product at a lower cost and undercut the dinosaurs, hopefully pricing them out of the market. Meanwhile, by correcting the imbalance bewteen the price of renewables and fossil fuels will make investment in clean technology more attractive.


development requires capital investments
(1) they need to have enough assets as security to borrow the money
(2) they need to have enough cashflow to afford the loan but sales and profits are down because of the tax so chances are they can't afford the loan
(3) there are no guarantees cheap exports (not affected by Carbon Tax) won't flood the market so why borrow money to invest in ne technology
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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number
 
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14% - that low?!

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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #42 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:37pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 9:58pm:
By changing prices. You do understand that prices affect consumption don't you chicken?


and you do understand that cheap imports will flood the market to boost consumption back up again!
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #43 - Apr 5th, 2011 at 11:23pm
 
Maqqa wrote on Apr 5th, 2011 at 10:34pm:
development requires capital investments
(1) they need to have enough assets as security to borrow the money
(2) they need to have enough cashflow to afford the loan but sales and profits are down because of the tax so chances are they can't afford the loan
(3) there are no guarantees cheap exports (not affected by Carbon Tax) won't flood the market so why borrow money to invest in ne technology



Do you the slightest shred of evidence for those assumptions?

A good piece from Bernard Keane over at Crikey:

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/04/05/where-does-a-carbon-price-fit-in-an-average-...

Quote:
Treasury modelled the impact of eight scenarios — carbon prices of $10, $20, $30 and $40 a tonne of CO2-equivalent, with a fuel rebate (as per the CPRS) and without. The impacts on households therefore varied widely. A $10 carbon price with a fuel rebate would be barely noticeable, costing $200 a year. The $40 carbon price, without any fuel concession, costs $1150 a year.

The $40 price is the best one for comparisons, because even if Labor and the Greens opt for an initial low price, it’s going to have to rise significantly if we’re to have any chance of meeting anything higher than the government’s paltry 5% 2020 emissions reduction target. With a fuel rebate, almost certain to be included in the carbon price scheme, that’s $15.60 a week, or $811 a year, including $286 in increased electricity costs.

As you’ll recall, Tony Abbott and Greg Hunt went through a phase of claiming that a $30 — not $40 — price on carbon would produce increased electricity costs of $1110 a year. This year, they quietly abandoned the $1100 figure and reverted to saying it would lift electricity prices by $300.

They’re in the ballpark — but for a $40 carbon price, not a $30 carbon price, which would raise electricity prices by less than $220 a year, even without the fuel rebate. Well done to John Quiggin, who suggested a $30 price would produce an electricity price rise of $200 a year back in early February when he demonstrated what rubbish Hunt was talking.

How do all these stack up against other items in the household budget?

For starters, it’s far less than the GST. If a carbon price is a great big new tax, Tony Abbott must’ve had an absolute conniption contemplating the GST back in 2000. According to last year’s Budget figures, in 2012 we’ll pay about $51 billion in GST. That’s on average — and remember we’re only ever dealing here with a mythical “average household” — just over $6000 a year, or $116 a week. As Treasury noted in another document released last week, the GST had about 3.5 times the cost impact that a $20 carbon price would have.

The Renewable Energy Target — the only climate change policy on which there is agreement right across the political parties — in its latest form increases electricity prices by $41 a year, according to Treasury. Ross Garnaut has argued that the RET should be dumped as soon as a carbon price is implemented. Garnaut also suggested continuing state ownership of electricity generators in NSW and Queensland was driving up network investment by much faster rates than necessary, although this wasn’t costed. But network investment costs dwarf the role the of the RET in rising power bills.

Once you start playing this game, there’s all sorts of perspectives you can bring to the cost of a carbon price. The ABS’s Household Expenditure Survey is now a little long in the tooth — the most recent one was 2003-04 — but it gives a sense of where a $15.60 a week carbon price bill would fit. It’s well below what the average household spends on alcohol, in current prices about $30 a week. It’s just over what the average household spent in 2003-04 on tobacco, but you’d imagine that has fallen significantly since then. It’s about twice what the average household spends on gambling, but well below the $22 a week we spent on average on toiletries and cosmetics. It’s about half what we spend on fast food every week and about two-thirds what we spend eating out, and a couple of dollars a week more than what we spend on sweets and chocolate.

According to figures quoted by AMP’s Shane Oliver, every $10 rise in the price of oil adds eight cents a litre to the cost of petrol locally, translating into an extra $3.60 a week for the average household

Alternatively, you can cast it in terms of other government policies. The Productivity Commission found we spend about $1.3 billion a year propping up 50,000-odd jobs in the automotive manufacturing sector, which amounts to $151 per household of taxes. The private health insurance rebate costs, in its recently revised form, $3.5 billion a year, or $437 per household in taxes. A levy to fund the national disability insurance scheme proposed in early February by the PC would cost just under $600 per household a year.

Or there’s Tony Abbott’s paid parental leave scheme, funded by a levy that, if passed through by businesses (the same way a carbon price would be), would have cost households on average $390 a year.


Some perspective beyond the "oh noes! economic armageddon" crowd's take on the issue.
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« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2011 at 9:51am by astro_surf »  

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 11:23am:
So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea nice person.&&
 
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astro_surf
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Re: Greens Party lack economic credibility
Reply #44 - Apr 6th, 2011 at 9:30am
 
[quote author=astro_surf]
Do you the slightest shred of evidence for those assumptions? [/quote]

So, I'll take your deafening silence as a resounding "no" then, shall I?
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« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2011 at 9:39am by astro_surf »  

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 11:23am:
So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea nice person.&&
 
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