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Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM (Read 14886 times)
The Stunt-free Horse
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #90 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 7:54pm
 
nichy wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 4:40pm:
BTW  what sort of a carbon footprint do the Grand Prix,  Bathurst and the Gold Coast Indy  leave ?

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

The libs will be dissapointed if the history books write them off over the failure to help achieve the required economic reform over this!  Cry Cry Cheesy Grin Shocked Cool Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Roll Eyes
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The Stunt-free Horse
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #91 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 7:56pm
 
The Stunt-free Horse wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 7:54pm:
nichy wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 4:40pm:
BTW  what sort of a carbon footprint do the Grand Prix,  Bathurst and the Gold Coast Indy  leave ?

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!

...the theme is the same: BIGGEST MARKET FAILURE EVER!  Kiss Kiss Cry

The libs will be dissapointed if the history books write them off over the failure to help achieve the required economic reform over this!  Cry Cry Cheesy Grin Shocked Cool Embarrassed Lips Sealed Undecided Kiss Roll Eyes

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #92 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 8:30pm
 
The Stunt-free Horse wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 7:49pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 5:24pm:
Maqqa wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 11:36am:
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 11:25am:
Quote:
Taxing the     21,000,000 in Australia will not reduce global warming


Yes it will, and the polkicies of our government take the global situation into account.


I made the original post with the 6,910,000,000 reference to show that Labor DID NOT take the global situation in hand

You seem to deliberately left out this 6,910,000,000 so you can convince us the ALP gave it considerations


You accuse me of leaving things out, yet you pretend that the government's policies that do address the global situation don't exist. The government has a very effective policy for handling international negotiations on GHG emissions. Your argument against the government relies entirely on dumbing things down to the extent of ignoring what the government is actually doing.

Quote:
There is zero incentive to any producer (like a steel manufacturer or an electricity maunfacturer) to spend millions or billions of dollars to rebuild or modify their infrastructure when they can simply up the price and recover the extra tax from the downstream consumers....


You are completely missing the point gizmo. they don't have to spend millions or billions. The point of the tax is that it provides the incentive to make the cheap changes without forcing the expensive ones. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Tony Abbotts retarded policy would bypass the cheap options and force the waste of millions of dollars. Sure it is direct and will feel good, but it would do far more harm to the economy.

Quote:
It must be a big disappointment therefore discover that the ETS inEurope operating at around $22/tonne has had ZERO effect on emissions.


You are wrong longy.

Quote:
expecting big things from our carbon tax then????


No longy, we expect lots of little things. That is the point.

Quote:
fortunately our economists...  now we are told this is an economic problem and not scientific..


Cods, choosing the mechanism to reduce emissions is and always has been an economic problem.

Quote:
as for doing less harm...how will we know????


A good start would be understanding the economic implications. It is actually quite simple.

With freediver on our side the deniers are pushing *%& up hill!

All heil the mighty carbon tax!!!

LOLs, bye bye Tony Abbott: freediver has signed your political death warrant and that is a fact!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cry Grin


Actually I am hoping Labor will loose the next election and the Libs will get in and lower some taxes, but will be too scared to get rid of the carbon tax.
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cods
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #93 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 9:25pm
 
Quote:

fortunately our economists...  now we are told this is an economic problem and not scientific..

Cods, choosing the mechanism to reduce emissions is and always has been an economic problem.

Quote:

as for doing less harm...how will we know????

A good start would be understanding the economic implications. It is actually quite simple. 
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understanding the economic implications.. have you had  a word with booby and Juliar...as you are wasting your breath on here..

you are sooooooooooooo concerned for the atmosphere and the economy then you are wasting your time, you should be on your soapbox when GETUP gets its revenge party together I am sure you will be a great hit.??

we understand the economics of a surplus..and having an enormous Tax that they can fiddle with as and when it suits them dont forget right now theres not a thing they the Feds, can do about the GST..lol.. now that really does run the economy.

imagine giving this lot free reign with a Carbon Tax from hell.. to do with as and when they choose.

and theres me thinking this is "the greatest moral challenge of our time"... where did I hear that???


well why dont you call for an election....it would be very interesting I would think.. I havent seen one lefty call for an election on this..

at least an election would put the stamp of approval on it once and for all.

you must be thrilled to have that berk deathrider on your side.. good luck with that
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #94 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 9:44pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 8:30pm:
Actually I am hoping Labor will loose the next election and the Libs will get in and lower some taxes, but will be too scared to get rid of the carbon tax.


That's fine with me: aslong as you want serious action on climate change I say you're alright!  Cool Cool Wink
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #95 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 10:03pm
 

Quote:
Quote:
There is zero incentive to any producer (like a steel manufacturer or an electricity maunfacturer) to spend millions or billions of dollars to rebuild or modify their infrastructure when they can simply up the price and recover the extra tax from the downstream consumers....


You are completely missing the point gizmo. they don't have to spend millions or billions. The point of the tax is that it provides the incentive to make the cheap changes without forcing the expensive ones. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Tony Abbotts retarded policy would bypass the cheap options and force the waste of millions of dollars. Sure it is direct and will feel good, but it would do far more harm to the economy.



How am I 'missing the point'???
The 'current' manufacturing or power systems are what they are...to change over to 'low carbon' or 'carbon free' production will cost hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars...and would involve a compltete rebuild of the infrastructure.....

So there's NO point to businesses changing over and spending ALL that money, just to reduce a tax that can be 'recovered' by upping the production cost to consumers....
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #96 - Mar 26th, 2011 at 11:03pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 10:03pm:
Quote:
Quote:
There is zero incentive to any producer (like a steel manufacturer or an electricity maunfacturer) to spend millions or billions of dollars to rebuild or modify their infrastructure when they can simply up the price and recover the extra tax from the downstream consumers....


You are completely missing the point gizmo. they don't have to spend millions or billions. The point of the tax is that it provides the incentive to make the cheap changes without forcing the expensive ones. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Tony Abbotts retarded policy would bypass the cheap options and force the waste of millions of dollars. Sure it is direct and will feel good, but it would do far more harm to the economy.



How am I 'missing the point'???
The 'current' manufacturing or power systems are what they are...to change over to 'low carbon' or 'carbon free' production will cost hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars...and would involve a compltete rebuild of the infrastructure.....

So there's NO point to businesses changing over and spending ALL that money, just to reduce a tax that can be 'recovered' by upping the production cost to consumers....

...yeh, a bit too simple mate!

...yeh, a bit too simple mate!

...yeh, a bit too simple mate!

...yeh, a bit too simple mate!
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freediver
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #97 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 9:05am
 
Quote:
understanding the economic implications.. have you had  a word with booby and Juliar...as you are wasting your breath on here..


No Cods. I have been promoting a Carbon tax since long before either of them.

Quote:
you are sooooooooooooo concerned for the atmosphere and the economy then you are wasting your time, you should be on your soapbox when GETUP gets its revenge party together I am sure you will be a great hit.??


Well, we got the federal government to impliment a carbon tax. In my book, that is a success, not a waste of time.

Quote:
well why dont you call for an election....


Because we don't need one. Think about what you are saying Cods.

Quote:
I havent seen one lefty call for an election on this..


Duh.

Quote:
How am I 'missing the point'???


By pretending a carbon tax won't create the right incentives.

Quote:
The 'current' manufacturing or power systems are what they are...to change over to 'low carbon' or 'carbon free' production will cost hundreds of millions, or even billions of dollars...and would involve a compltete rebuild of the infrastructure.....


I believe I responded directly to this point, in the post you quoted.

Quote:
So there's NO point to businesses changing over and spending ALL that money, just to reduce a tax that can be 'recovered' by upping the production cost to consumers....


No gizmo. Businesses do not stay in business by blindly passing on production costs. If they can reduce GHG emissions for less than the cost of the tax, they will do so, because it will make them more competitive. That is how it works. We live in a capitalist economy, not a communist one as some seem to think.
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Maqqa
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #98 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 9:24am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 5:24pm:
Maqqa wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 11:36am:
freediver wrote on Mar 26th, 2011 at 11:25am:
Quote:
Taxing the     21,000,000 in Australia will not reduce global warming


Yes it will, and the polkicies of our government take the global situation into account.


I made the original post with the 6,910,000,000 reference to show that Labor DID NOT take the global situation in hand

You seem to deliberately left out this 6,910,000,000 so you can convince us the ALP gave it considerations


You accuse me of leaving things out, yet you pretend that the government's policies that do address the global situation don't exist. The government has a very effective policy for handling international negotiations on GHG emissions. Your argument against the government relies entirely on dumbing things down to the extent of ignoring what the government is actually doing.



Lets examine each of these highlighted points and see why I am ALWAYS right!

Point 1
(a) I've never denied the government of not having a policy - simply that their policy is ineffective and cost Aust money eg Pink Batts.
(b) The government has a policy but it is INEFFECTIVE globally because  the tax is only effect INSIDE Australian hence I highlighted the 21M people being taxed while the other 6 billion aren't. This is not effective


Point 2
As much as Rudd tells you how effectively he was doing - he and Wong were largely ignored at these meetings. Copenhagen achieved nothing and they achieved nothing at subsequent meetings. Australia has no influence otherwise Labor would be screaming from the rooftops as to how they made the US do something.

Point 3
I have to dumb things down because if you lefties don't understand or will not admit to the truth when you see it - take an example
>> Carbon Dioxide represents 0.01% to 0.1% of the atmosphere
>> Humans potentially only contributes 1% to the 0.01% = 0.0001%
>> Of the 0.0001% Australia contributes 1.2% = 0.0000012%
>> Reducing Aust 0.0000012% by 5% = 0.00000006%

So instead of coming up with facts to refute my NASA reference - you have idiots like deathrider simply abuse me







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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #99 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:52am
 
Quote:
The government has a policy but it is INEFFECTIVE globally because  the tax is only effect INSIDE Australian


But Maqqa you are ignoring the relevant government policy. That is, the government has a 5% emissions reduction target, increasing to 15% with major first world players matching, and 25% with China and India. Obviously the tax is only part of our policy - it is the domestic mechanism for emissions reduction, nothing more. You are demanding it become something it was never intended to be then criticising it for failing the standard you demand of it. That is, you are creating a strawman argument. Obviously if you only acknowledge half of government policy it is easy to pretend it is not all there, but this is merely a reflection of your ignorance of government policy.

Quote:
As much as Rudd tells you how effectively he was doing - he and Wong were largely ignored at these meetings.


That's what happens when you are a team player. I guarantee you that Howard was not ignored when he was America's only first world ally in refusing to ratify Kyoto.
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #100 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 11:38am
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:52am:
[quote]

That's what happens when you are a team player. I guarantee you that Howard was not ignored when he was America's only first world ally in refusing to ratify Kyoto.



Did you know the increase in China's carbon emissions were FIVE TIMES the amount of all the Kyoto reductions added together?

Just to show how absurd the situation of not capping China and India to the same level as the rest of us.

You just don't seem to get it.
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #101 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 1:02pm
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 11:38am:
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:52am:
[quote]

That's what happens when you are a team player. I guarantee you that Howard was not ignored when he was America's only first world ally in refusing to ratify Kyoto.



Did you know the increase in China's carbon emissions were FIVE TIMES the amount of all the Kyoto reductions added together?

Just to show how absurd the situation of not capping China and India to the same level as the rest of us.

You just don't seem to get it.


But India already has a carbon tax. Both china and India are doing more for carbon reduction than we are.

And you don't get it Hicks. It's the western money and greed that has poured into chinese industries so that the likes of Frank Lowey, Gerry Harvey etc can make even more money than before by using third world sweatshop labor in a run down sub standard factory that wouldn't meet EPA requirements in a first world country Sad

You would be the first to decommission a factory here and sack all of the workers and setup in china in a factory that doesn't meet our EPA standards and all for financial expediency Sad
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #102 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 1:35pm
 
Quote:
Did you know the increase in China's carbon emissions were FIVE TIMES the amount of all the Kyoto reductions added together?


As far as I know Kyoto hasn't actually achieved any reductions yet.
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #103 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 1:43pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 9:05am:
Quote:
[quote]So there's NO point to businesses changing over and spending ALL that money, just to reduce a tax that can be 'recovered' by upping the production cost to consumers....


No gizmo. Businesses do not stay in business by blindly passing on production costs. If they can reduce GHG emissions for less than the cost of the tax, they will do so, because it will make them more competitive. That is how it works. We live in a capitalist economy, not a communist one as some seem to think.


And if the businesses CAN'T reduce GHG emissions for 'less than the cost of the tax'?????

Do you think a publicly traded company is going to reduce it's profits and therefore it's shareholder dividends rather than increase the wholesale price of it's product???
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #104 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 2:00pm
 
Quote:
And if the businesses CAN'T reduce GHG emissions for 'less than the cost of the tax'?????


They pass it on and it affects producer and consumer behaviour downstream.

Quote:
Do you think a publicly traded company is going to reduce it's profits and therefore it's shareholder dividends rather than increase the wholesale price of it's product???


No, but that is what you suggested when you said it would all be passed on.
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