Australian Politics Forum - Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM

philperth2010

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #30 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:18am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:01am:

philperth2010 wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:00am:

Maqqa wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 10:53am:

There are 6,910,000,000 people in the world (give an take a few Greens)

Taxing the 21,000,000 in Australia will not reduce global warming

Doing nothing will not prevent global warming.....Australia is committed to cutting its carbon output just like other countries.....How we make these cuts is what the debate is about.....Australia needs to decide what mechanism it will use to make the required cuts and work towards that goal using a combination of renewable options!!!

Phil, I know you are a supporter of a carbon tax.
Do you want to address my concerns in the above post about imports?

I deal with facts Andrei not scare mongering......You should know that by now.....I will comment when the details of the policy are released and I hear what the impact will be....The government has already stated that affected industries will be compensated.....I see no reason to start sprucing fear and mistrust until we see what is actually offered in the detail!!!

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If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them.
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Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM Reply #31 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:24am Equitist Yes the increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration should be of great concern to all life forms on the Planet Earth. As these NON-SPINNED, NON-POLITICISED plots clearly show
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freediver

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #32 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:25am

Quote:

If you put a carbon tax on Australian manufacturers of carbon intensive products - such as steel for example - but you don't place any carbon related restriction on imported carbon intensive products from countries which don't have any controls - how is that beneficial to either Australia or the environment?

That is not the plan.

Quote:

Taxing the 21,000,000 in Australia will not reduce global warming

Yes it will, and the polkicies of our government take the global situation into account.

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I identify as Mail because all I do is SendIT!

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Foolosophy Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1171 Australia Gender:	Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM Reply #33 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:26am CO2 rises are a real worry
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vegitamite

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #34 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:28am

......"Anti-climate-change opinion gets a lot of gut level support by confusing the planet with our world. The planet is 4.6 billion years old; heavy industry started 200 years ago. "Two hundred years versus four and a half billion years and we have the conceit to think we are a threat," joked the late US satirist, George Carlin. He's right: our carbon emissions won't kill the planet. But human-caused climate change will alter the world we depend on for survival. (It's worth remembering that the so-called "climate-change controversy" is in the press, not the academic journals.)

On the opposite side, sustainable living is painted as a duty that's "good for the planet". No, the planet's fine. It's good for us. It's not a moral issue, but a survival issue, and that should galvanise us."

".....talking about the world not the planet changes how we see our role here. In "saving the planet", humanity gives itself the role of custodian. It implies that the planet is ours to use. And that's exactly the attitude that got us into this mess.
If we want to save our world, then we need to remember that it is many communities, not just of human beings, but of plants and animals (ecosystems). Instead of behaving like citizens, we've behaved like consumers. Even the projects to change our behaviour still frame us as consumers.

This is unsurprising, since we've reframed the whole idea of citizenship as a commercial relationship. There's a crucial difference between being a "taxpayer" (a consumer) and a citizen, a member of society, contributing. Governments referring to its citizens as "clients" is equally wrong: a government is not a service provider in the same sense. This consumer approach to democracy encourages passive citizenship"

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/45632.html\

We won't kill the planet, just our world

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Equitist

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #35 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:31am

Global economic forces are destroying our manufacturing base - with the tacit consent of politicians of all toxic flavours!

Manufacturing has been in terminal decline for decades - and we would be wise to couple our carbon-constrained economic restructuring to incorporate a sustainable manufacturing base (even if that requires dreaded subsidies and concessions)...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM Reply #36 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:31am If someone gives me two bob I'll go out & get a dozen Flim Flammeries.
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Equitist

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #37 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:35am

Encore: -

Quote:

......"Anti-climate-change opinion gets a lot of gut level support by confusing the planet with our world. The planet is 4.6 billion years old; heavy industry started 200 years ago. "Two hundred years versus four and a half billion years and we have the conceit to think we are a threat," joked the late US satirist, George Carlin. He's right: our carbon emissions won't kill the planet. But human-caused climate change will alter the world we depend on for survival. (It's worth remembering that the so-called "climate-change controversy" is in the press, not the academic journals.)

On the opposite side, sustainable living is painted as a duty that's "good for the planet". No, the planet's fine. It's good for us. It's not a moral issue, but a survival issue, and that should galvanise us."

".....talking about the world not the planet changes how we see our role here. In "saving the planet", humanity gives itself the role of custodian. It implies that the planet is ours to use. And that's exactly the attitude that got us into this mess.
If we want to save our world, then we need to remember that it is many communities, not just of human beings, but of plants and animals (ecosystems). Instead of behaving like citizens, we've behaved like consumers. Even the projects to change our behaviour still frame us as consumers.

This is unsurprising, since we've reframed the whole idea of citizenship as a commercial relationship. There's a crucial difference between being a "taxpayer" (a consumer) and a citizen, a member of society, contributing. Governments referring to its citizens as "clients" is equally wrong: a government is not a service provider in the same sense. This consumer approach to democracy encourages passive citizenship"

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/45632.html\

We won't kill the planet, just our world

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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Maqqa

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14% - that low?!

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #38 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:36am

freediver wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:25am:

Quote:

Taxing the 21,000,000 in Australia will not reduce global warming

Yes it will, and the polkicies of our government take the global situation into account.

I made the original post with the 6,910,000,000 reference to show that Labor DID NOT take the global situation in hand

You seem to deliberately left out this 6,910,000,000 so you can convince us the ALP gave it considerations

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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Maqqa

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14% - that low?!

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #39 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:51am

Maqqa wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 10:53am:

There are 6,910,000,000 people in the world (give an take a few Greens)

Taxing the 21,000,000 in Australia will not reduce global warming

Further to this post....

we have 6,910,000,000 carbon emitting humans

environmentalists can't tell me in percentage terms how much humans contribute to it

what if these 6,910,000,000 carbon emitting humans only represent 1% of the total carbon emissions on Earth?

even if ALL of the 6,910,000,000 are wiped out it would not stop global warming

Summary

6,910,000,000 = 1% of ALL carbon emissions

Does anyone know how much carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere?

0.01% to 0.1%
http://www.nasa.gov/audience/forstudents/9-12/features/912_liftoff_atm.html

in percentage terms how much of this 0.01% to 0.1% do humans contribute to?

so equitists and ALL others - YOU HAVE NO PROOF other than some loose observations on some temperature gauge

so Gillard wants to
(1) tax 21,000,000 Australians which only contributes 1.2% to the 6,910,000,000 polluters
(2) which represents potentially 1% to carbon dioxide which only makes up between 0.01% to 0.1% of the atmosphere
(3) All this costing Australians billions $$$$$ a year for thousands of years

FOR WHAT?

so 21 million Australians can win some moral argument against the other 6 billion around the world??!!

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Bill 14% is not the alcohol content of that wine. It's your poll number

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perceptions_now

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #40 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:58am

freediver wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 10:16am:

Quote:

you cant have human caused climategate one day.. and no it isnt human casued the next.

Cods, you misunderstood it to. He is not changing his mind. Try reading again what he actually said, rather than letting your imagination go wild with what you think he said.

Quote:

Of course humans have some sort of impact on climate, but taxing the living daylights out of people and then compensating others will not change anything except to send the country broke.

Fortunately our economists stick to reality.

A tax will have an impact on our emissions,

and it will do less harm to our economy than any other mechanism.

That's not correct, they stick to their perceptions of how they think things should be, which is currently, not reality!

The proposed Carbon tax, will not significantly affect our GHG emissions, particularly not if the Population continues to grow at levels suggested by both the Labs & the libs!

IF any significant GHG reductions are to be forthcoming, then they will have to be from Legislated annual reductions, with TAX Credits for achieving those reductions & Debit for Non- achievement!

By far, the greatest harm to our Australian & the Global Economy, will come from TPTB/POLITICIANS and their attempts to continue with the status quo or business as usual!

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mozzaok

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #41 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 12:02pm

While it may be admirable for someone like Tim Flannery, to try and create a more balanced, and conciliatory, approach to how we discuss the issues surrounding Climate Change, the wilful misinterpretation of what he actually said, shows us that the position of the, hard core, denialist camp is rooted in adversarial extremism.

Only the most extreme could interpret his words as exposing AGW as a scam, and the sad truth is that their views are inspired by, and rooted in, strict obeisance to a particular political ideology.
Because of that, as another poster here already pointed out, they will oppose any, and all Climate Action, until someone from their own side of politics proposes it, so we must hope that people like Tim Flannery can inspire some of those politicians to have a closer look at the science involved, and begin to appreciate the sense behind mitigating our risk exposure.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Soren

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #42 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 12:05pm

Equitist wrote on Mar 26^th, 2011 at 11:14am:

Humanity is on a self-destructive course to receive premature Darwin Awards en masse...whilst ever a small group of amoral, wealthy and powerful people and corporations can get away with profiting from confounding the issues and spuriously-separating their destructive actions from the scientific evidence...

ANYTHING against which this passes for an argument has my vote.

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Soren

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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #43 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 12:12pm

Quote:

......"Anti-climate-change opinion gets a lot of gut level support by confusing the planet with our world. The planet is 4.6 billion years old; heavy industry started 200 years ago. "Two hundred years versus four and a half billion years and we have the conceit to think we are a threat," joked the late US satirist, George Carlin. He's right: our carbon emissions won't kill the planet. But human-caused climate change will alter the world we depend on for survival. (It's worth remembering that the so-called "climate-change controversy" is in the press, not the academic journals.)

On the opposite side, sustainable living is painted as a duty that's "good for the planet". No, the planet's fine. It's good for us. It's not a moral issue, but a survival issue, and that should galvanise us."

".....talking about the world not the planet changes how we see our role here. In "saving the planet", humanity gives itself the role of custodian. It implies that the planet is ours to use. And that's exactly the attitude that got us into this mess.
If we want to save our world, then we need to remember that it is many communities, not just of human beings, but of plants and animals (ecosystems). Instead of behaving like citizens, we've behaved like consumers. Even the projects to change our behaviour still frame us as consumers.

This is unsurprising, since we've reframed the whole idea of citizenship as a commercial relationship. There's a crucial difference between being a "taxpayer" (a consumer) and a citizen, a member of society, contributing. Governments referring to its citizens as "clients" is equally wrong: a government is not a service provider in the same sense. This consumer approach to democracy encourages passive citizenship"

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/45632.html\

We won't kill the planet, just our world

This is cute. But we 'killed our world, when we learned to use fire. We killed our world when we learned to navigate the seas. We killed our world when we started agricyulture and then a few thousand years later, industry.

About other 'communities, not just of human beings'. I don't think viruses, bacteria, algae, noxious weeds, cancer cells etc have ever heard of this. I think you'd better get out there and educate them.

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM Reply #44 - Mar 26^th, 2011 at 12:19pm I am still waiting for someone to tell me why its a good idea to have a carbon tax on products made by Australian manufacturers but there will be no tax on imports made from a much more carbon intensive process? How is that good for a) Australia b) World pollution Answers on a postcard - or on here.
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