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Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM (Read 41158 times)
gizmo_2655
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #105 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 2:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 2:00pm:
Quote:
And if the businesses CAN'T reduce GHG emissions for 'less than the cost of the tax'?????


They pass it on and it affects producer and consumer behaviour downstream.

Quote:
Do you think a publicly traded company is going to reduce it's profits and therefore it's shareholder dividends rather than increase the wholesale price of it's product???


No, but that is what you suggested when you said it would all be passed on.


Exactly.......they'd pass the extra costs along, rather than reduce their profit margin...or expend the capitol to rebuild or replace the equipment..
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #106 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 3:14pm
 
Exactly what? Passing the costs on is a good thing. It is what makes the downstream purchasers change their buying patterns. This is not a flaw gizmo. It is how the tax is supposed to work.

But again, it only happens where it is cheaper than avoiding the tax.
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perceptions_now
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #107 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 3:14pm:
Exactly what? Passing the costs on is a good thing. It is what makes the downstream purchasers change their buying patterns. This is not a flaw gizmo. It is how the tax is supposed to work.

But again, it only happens where it is cheaper than avoiding the tax.


There is absolutely no way that there will be any reduction in GHG's, unless the disposal income of the vast majority of the Public takes a massive hit, from whatever avenue!

And, even then, if the Population of Australia actually grows at the rates suggested by both Labor & the Libs, then GHG's will still increase, over today's levels!

If there is to be any decline in GHG's, it will have to be via legislation, with Tax Debits & Credits and Population growth may still be a hurdle too high!

And, none of this will have any actual, positive, Global effect, unless the other biggies come to the party, such as the USA & China!
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #108 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:13pm
 
Quote:
There is absolutely no way that there will be any reduction in GHG's, unless the disposal income of the vast majority of the Public takes a massive hit, from whatever avenue!


Not true PN. This is where it helps to consult economists, so that you don't end up thinking you have to destroy the economy to reduce GHG emissions.
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #109 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:41pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:13pm:
Quote:
There is absolutely no way that there will be any reduction in GHG's, unless the disposal income of the vast majority of the Public takes a massive hit, from whatever avenue!


Not true PN. This is where it helps to consult economists, so that you don't end up thinking you have to destroy the economy to reduce GHG emissions.


Absolute rubbish, most of the economists have no idea what is currently happening in the Global Economy!
In fact, the vast majority of what is heard coming out of Economists, Central Bankers & Politicians is pure BS or their wishlist, it certainly isn't any likely reality!

In any event, what difference has the Petrol tax/excise made?
The answer is none!

And, that would continue to be the answer on GHG's in general.

People will continue with the same habits, unless it hurts the hip-pocket nerve hard.

And that is going to happen over the next couple of years, anyhow, due to the Global Economy.

So, a Carbon tax or any of the other Brits Conservative/Australia Libs/ US Republican old style Austerity Budget cuts, will only serve to exacerbate an already bad situation!  But the overall outcome, will affect GHG's, as a side effect.  

So, good luck with the Carbon Tax, but the only major likely effect of it, will be to contribute the Federal Labor losing power!
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #110 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:48pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 3:14pm:
Exactly what? Passing the costs on is a good thing. It is what makes the downstream purchasers change their buying patterns. This is not a flaw gizmo. It is how the tax is supposed to work.

But again, it only happens where it is cheaper than avoiding the tax.


Really??....I suppose passing the costs downstream is 'generally' a good thing...but it's stilll a 'problem' when the costs are a 'pointless tax' which the Government has promised 'won't be passed on'...n'est-ce pas???
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #111 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:51pm
 
What a surprise, economic alarmists misrepresenting science to advance their agenda. I sure didn't see that coming.
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Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 11:23am:
So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea moron.&&
 
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #112 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:51pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:41pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:13pm:
Quote:
There is absolutely no way that there will be any reduction in GHG's, unless the disposal income of the vast majority of the Public takes a massive hit, from whatever avenue!


Not true PN. This is where it helps to consult economists, so that you don't end up thinking you have to destroy the economy to reduce GHG emissions.


Absolute rubbish, most of the economists have no idea what is currently happening in the Global Economy!
In fact, the vast majority of what is heard coming out of Economists, Central Bankers & Politicians is pure BS or their wishlist, it certainly isn't any likely reality!

In any event, what difference has the Petrol tax/excise made?
The answer is none!

And, that would continue to be the answer on GHG's in general.

People will continue with the same habits, unless it hurts the hip-pocket nerve hard.

And that is going to happen over the next couple of years, anyhow, due to the Global Economy.

So, a Carbon tax or any of the other Brits Conservative/Australia Libs/ US Republican old style Austerity Budget cuts, will only serve to exacerbate an already bad situation!  But the overall outcome, will affect GHG's, as a side effect.  

So, good luck with the Carbon Tax, but the only major likely effect of it, will be to contribute the Federal Labor losing power!


But it WILL mean that Federal Labor will be in Surplus again....Which is the point to the Carbon Tax...
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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perceptions_now
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #113 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 6:43pm
 
gizmo_2655 wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:51pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:41pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:13pm:
Quote:
There is absolutely no way that there will be any reduction in GHG's, unless the disposal income of the vast majority of the Public takes a massive hit, from whatever avenue!


Not true PN. This is where it helps to consult economists, so that you don't end up thinking you have to destroy the economy to reduce GHG emissions.


Absolute rubbish, most of the economists have no idea what is currently happening in the Global Economy!
In fact, the vast majority of what is heard coming out of Economists, Central Bankers & Politicians is pure BS or their wishlist, it certainly isn't any likely reality!

In any event, what difference has the Petrol tax/excise made?
The answer is none!

And, that would continue to be the answer on GHG's in general.

People will continue with the same habits, unless it hurts the hip-pocket nerve hard.

And that is going to happen over the next couple of years, anyhow, due to the Global Economy.

So, a Carbon tax or any of the other Brits Conservative/Australia Libs/ US Republican old style Austerity Budget cuts, will only serve to exacerbate an already bad situation!  But the overall outcome, will affect GHG's, as a side effect.  

So, good luck with the Carbon Tax, but the only major likely effect of it, will be to contribute the Federal Labor losing power!


But it WILL mean that Federal Labor will be in Surplus again....Which is the point to the Carbon Tax.
..


Whilst I agree, the point of the Carbon Tax from Labor's point of view, is to improve their financial outlook, specifically from the Revenue, Debt & Deficit perspectives.

However, there is little to zero chance of this tax putting Labor &/or Liberals &/or Australia back into Surplus, any time short of the next century - NO, I'M NOT JOKING!

Btw, the Liberals will be into tax (whether they call it Carbon tax or whatever name), when they next get into Federal power, which is likely at the next election and they will also be into Austerity budgets, following their past habits.

This will be absloutely the wrong thing, at the wrong time, but they will follow the Brits & the Republicans in the USA!

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perceptions_now
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #114 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 6:44pm
 
astro_surf wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 5:51pm:
What a surprise,
economic alarmists misrepresenting science to advance their agenda.
I sure didn't see that coming.


Gizmo,
I think Astro is talking to you!

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freediver
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #115 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 8:59pm
 
PN:

Quote:
Absolute rubbish, most of the economists have no idea what is currently happening in the Global Economy!


So your argument is that economists don't know what theya re talking about and you know better?

Quote:
In any event, what difference has the Petrol tax/excise made?
The answer is none!


What makes you think that?

gizmo:

Quote:
which the Government has promised 'won't be passed on'


When did they promise that gizmo?
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perceptions_now
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #116 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 8:59pm:
Perceptionsnow Quote:
Absolute rubbish, most of the economists have no idea what is currently happening in the Global Economy!


So your argument is that economists don't know what theya re talking about and you know better?



That's pretty much correct!

There were very few Economists that Publicly said they saw the current GFC coming, before it started, as we have previously discussed.

Most of them still talk the usual lines about growth, even now. They are talking pure BS &/or what they think used to happen &/or what they want to happen.

A good example of the pure BS part, fits quite well, for a lot of issues relevant to the US government, their Federal Reserve Bank and much of the statistics out of all their relevant authorities.

The US is much like the Piigs of Europe, they are effectively Bankrupt, but you won't find too many of your Economists agreeing with that, either!

And still, the vast majority of them do not even acknowledge, nor do they understand or want to understand, the major (and new) forces that are now in charge of Global Economics!

Those major (and new) factors, include -
Demographics - Baby Boomer Bust & Total Population slowing/decline
Peak Energy
Climate Change
Peak Debt

In short, they are living in a past, that is not coming back, any time soon and I suspect that you may know their boat, formerly known as the Titanic.  

Anyhow, Good luck with your assumptions & watch the Debt!
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #117 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:10pm
 
A carbon tax will cost households less than the GST, 1% according to Treasury, and costs to motorists being less than a few dollars a week. This isn't quite the economic armageddon that more than a few people here have been led to believe it is...
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« Last Edit: Mar 27th, 2011 at 11:08pm by astro_surf »  

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 11th, 2011 at 11:23am:
So tell me, you'd like to see more and more craphouse coloured people in Australia right?&&Yeah good idea moron.&&
 
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #118 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:14pm
 



astro_surf wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:10pm:
A carbon tax will cost households less than the GST, 1% according to Treasury, and costs to motorists being less than a few dollars a week. This isn't quite the economic armageddon that more than a few people heyre have been led to believe...




It will also cost households far less than the current policy of the Libs...


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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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Re: Tim Flannery reveals AGW SCAM
Reply #119 - Mar 27th, 2011 at 10:16pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 27th, 2011 at 8:59pm:
PN:

Quote:
In any event, what difference has the Petrol tax/excise made?
The answer is none!


What makes you think that?



Do you take the Petrol tax/excise into your considerations?
Has your use of Petrol gone down?
Do you know of anyone who takes the Petrol tax/excise into your considerations?

You may want to have a look at the EIA figures for 2001-2009 (latest available), Petroleum Consumption has continued its basic upward trend.
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/cfapps/ipdbproject/iedindex3.cfm?tid=5&pid=5&aid=2&cid=...

Now, ALL OF THAT MAY WELL CHANGE, as I suspect that Peak Oil will likely send Petrol to around $3 a litre (even without the Carbon Tax), in the not too distant future and Austerity programs abroad and here, will make people start to change long set habits!
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