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Deconstructing the electric grid (Read 2080 times)
Grey
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #15 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 1:31am
 
Bobby. wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:08pm:
It's a bit harder than that.
You would need a lot of solar cells & giant dangerous batteries
& it would cost a fortune.
Feeding power from solar panels into the grid is a better idea -
no batteries required.
.


The cost of solar cells for a house using the national average of 18KWh per day would be less than  $6,000 with a guaranteed life of 25 years. A safe system of batteries for yes by a block shouldn't add unduly to the cost. Many semi rural properties are operating stand alone systems and saving a great deal by doing it.
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buzzanddidj
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #16 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 8:00am
 
Government's broken promises

February 06, 2011

THE Baillieu Government has been accused of backing away from one of its most contentious election promises just two months after taking office.
Mystery surrounds the Government's pledge to put powerlines underground in bushfire risk areas, despite Premier Ted Baillieu's promise to do so in the lead-up to the November state election.

An email from Energy Safe Victoria, leaked to the Sunday Herald Sun, reveals the Government has put on ice a Stakeholder Reference Group of fire-affected community and industry leaders set up to investigate the issue.

It is also not known if the Government intends to continue with a Powerline Bushfire Safety Taskforce set up last year to look at the technology available, costs and community impact of burying the power sources.

The taskforce was due to deliver an interim report on its 10-year plan tomorrow. Its final report is due on June 30

Opposition bushfire response spokeswoman Jacinta Allan said the Government appeared to be shirking its pre-election pledge to implement all the bushfires royal commission report recommendations.


"We are seeing the very first sign that they are going to walk away from that promise that they made to communities right across Victoria," she said.

"What are the government hiding from the community?"

"Is it that behind the scenes they are in absolute turmoil about how they are going to meet each and every one of the recommendations?

"Are they walking away from this because they know they can't fund all their Budget commitments?"




http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/governments-broken-promises/story-e6frf7jo-1226...


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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #17 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 4:06pm
 
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longweekend58
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #18 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 5:07pm
 
Grey wrote on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 1:31am:
Bobby. wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 10:08pm:
It's a bit harder than that.
You would need a lot of solar cells & giant dangerous batteries
& it would cost a fortune.
Feeding power from solar panels into the grid is a better idea -
no batteries required.
.


The cost of solar cells for a house using the national average of 18KWh per day would be less than  $6,000 with a guaranteed life of 25 years. A safe system of batteries for yes by a block shouldn't add unduly to the cost. Many semi rural properties are operating stand alone systems and saving a great deal by doing it.


if it were as simple as u seem to think it was hen it would already have been done or at least tried. But it hasnt.  there is a clue there.

Removing overhead power lines is a nice idea but the hundreds of billions of dollars for what is essentially nothing more than aesthetics is not going to happen.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Baronvonrort
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #19 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 5:35pm
 
Grey wrote on Mar 22nd, 2011 at 7:52pm:
It's 19thC technology. It's ugly, it's inefficient, it's dangerous, it's time it was localised and buried underground.

Like the work of a deranged robotic spider it covers the landscape. You get used to seeing it and so you don't see it; but unconsciously it niggles away at your asthetic sense. Imagine, a landscape free of the tyranny of power lines. No more poles and pylons, no more disfigured trees, avenues of palms with one side lopped off, rotting carcases of birds and possums.

No more wasted power to pay for. No more fires started by unmaintained equipment, writhing tentacles of death in storms, no more, (or a lot less) poles to collide with. No more extensive blackouts because of one small fault. No more megapower 'plants' of physical and visual pollution. No more rental payments for having it pass by whether you use it or not.

This is now possible.  All that is needed in a aolar world is a battery or two per block connecting houses with an underground grid. The ability to link to adjoining blocks to deal with emergencies when a fault produces a LOCALISED black out.

Industrial volumes of power can be delivered by industrilal power stations where its needed. A combination of solar and wind turbines can cover the roof spaces of areas already asthetically unpleasant.

Let's have some visions of the future. Let's tell THEM what we want - BEFORE they tell us what we are going to get.  


The power plants burn coal or gas or use nuclear fission to boil water to create steam that drives the turbines that generate power.
The power plants then transmit this power via high voltage powerlines to sub stations that step the power down to 240V before distributing it locally.
The high voltage powerlines from the power plant to the substation cost about a million dollars per KM last time i checked to bury them underground they get hot and need cooling so the cheapest option is to hang them in the air it gets very expensive if you want to bury these particular lines.

Putting the 240v power lines from the substations to homes/businesses underground is another matter thats ok they should do it.

We need power plants to supply base load to give industry reliable 3 phase power so the question then becomes what do you use to boil the water to create steam to drive the turbines?

Coal sucks we should phase that out and use propane/butane we have lots of it we sell it to China for 2 cents a litre.
Nuclear power with a modern reactor is much safer yet the cost is not cheap it is usually government subsidised so the real costs are hidden and for a KW per dollar PV solar and wind are much cheaper.

If we build more power plants then we need more substations as part of the package and take into account there are transmission losses in sending power down cables.

Solar thermal there are many different types my old solarhart hot water heater is an example of solar thermal.

Solar thermal to produce electricity costs far more than solar PV for Kw per dollar.
They say we should build these solar thermal plants in the desert which sounds ok then where do they get the water to boil to make the steam that drives the turbines in the middle of a desert?
If its cloudy solar thermal is no good and if sand happens to blow onto the reflectors then efficiency drops.
You need a large area to put it in which means red tape nightmare then you still have to build substations and the reality is only about 400 mega watts are currently produced worldwide from solar thermal.

If you compare the water use from PV solar which might only need it to clean the panel (rain also does this) to the massive water use required from solar thermal and look at how country areas in Australia have been in drought for the last few decades you might wonder if we should even bother with this unproven technology down here.
Solar thermal will cost more per KW compared to solar pv or wind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrating_solar_power

Solar is good you can get an inverter and hook it up to the grid so any excess power gets sold back to the power companies.
If there is a blackout you cannot put power back into the grid for safety reasons so diverting it to a battery bank if you are not using the power could be sensible.
If people put panels on their roofs they enjoy cheap green power and we dont have to upgrade any infrastructure to do this.

Australia enjoys good average windspeed on the coast so wind turbines work very well here.
Here are some smaller ones more suited for domestic use
http://www.energymatters.com.au/images/Proven%20Energy/Proven%20Wind%20Turbines%...

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Grey
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #20 - Mar 23rd, 2011 at 7:08pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 5:07pm:
if it were as simple as u seem to think it was hen it would already have been done or at least tried. But it hasnt.  there is a clue there.

Removing overhead power lines is a nice idea but the hundreds of billions of dollars for what is essentially nothing more than aesthetics is not going to happen.


Of course it's being done, many households now run on stand alone solar systems. I've yet to hear of one household that's converted to solar wish they hadn't. It's not just aesthetics but if it were that's a good enough reason.

The main obstacle is the political thrall that power companies hold politicians in. Even without government committment to solar power the technology is evolving at a pace unheard of outside of the computer industry. The next generation solar cells will go on as a paint.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s3008638.htm
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #21 - Mar 24th, 2011 at 6:42am
 
Grey wrote on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 7:08pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Mar 23rd, 2011 at 5:07pm:
if it were as simple as u seem to think it was hen it would already have been done or at least tried. But it hasnt.  there is a clue there.

Removing overhead power lines is a nice idea but the hundreds of billions of dollars for what is essentially nothing more than aesthetics is not going to happen.


Of course it's being done, many households now run on stand alone solar systems. I've yet to hear of one household that's converted to solar wish they hadn't. It's not just aesthetics but if it were that's a good enough reason.

The main obstacle is the political thrall that power companies hold politicians in. Even without government committment to solar power the technology is evolving at a pace unheard of outside of the computer industry. The next generation solar cells will go on as a paint.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s3008638.htm


VERY VERY FEW run on solar ONLY. for starters solar only works during the day remember? what happens at night? very very few have battery setups and those that do (like rooboy) run a 12V very low use system. Try running your aircon or your large TV on a battery powered by a solar cell.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Grey
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #22 - Mar 24th, 2011 at 2:12pm
 
12v ?  Grin That's a charmingly antiquated viewpoint Longweekend. I know some people who were faced with a $100,000 bill for getting power delivered by the grid and opted for a 12volt system using some ex post office batteries. Actually it worked quite well as you can of course buy appliances that work off it. But that was in  the early seventies and they had converted to 240 by 1980.

These days their horticultural and aquacultural pursuits are fully computerised and working as consultants for solar power is a nice little earner too.
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Re: Deconstructing the electric grid
Reply #23 - Mar 24th, 2011 at 2:17pm
 
longweekend58 wrote on Mar 24th, 2011 at 6:42am:
VERY VERY FEW run on solar ONLY. for starters solar only works during the day remember? what happens at night? very very few have battery setups and those that do (like rooboy) run a 12V very low use system. Try running your aircon or your large TV on a battery powered by a solar cell.


You'd be surprised. I've seen quite a few standalone domestic solar installations out in the bush. The cost of connecting to the grid is prohibitive in many cases. It depends what you mean by very few I guess.
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