Australian Politics Forum - would you vote for this party?

JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5197 Gender:	would you vote for this party? Feb 22^nd, 2011 at 12:11pm i wouldnt lol
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BatteriesNotIncluded Gold Member Offline MediocrityNET: because people died for this! Posts: 26966	Re: would you vote for this party? Reply #1 - Sep 13^th, 2011 at 1:47am Why not?
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Jan

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #2 - Feb 24^th, 2012 at 10:58am

I would never vote for a party that had no idea how the world's elite work, or who really runs governments.

Sustainability needs to start from the bottom not the top ie. at the local level where people actually can achieve sustainable goals. eg. building in sustainable ways, such as mud bricks, pise, used tyres, Geodesic domes (for living and gardening) and many other low cost low energy building methods, (stop the ridiculous building codes created to add revenue).

Then there is inner city traffic. Stop all fuel guzzling vehicles, and direct local councils (or private enterprise) to provide and rent out electric carts (golf buggies?), and other non-fuel burning vehicles.

This is only the tip of the iceberg as to what 'the people' can achieve and create employment at the same time.

This so-called sustainability party of Australia is nothing more than 'more of the same', using emotional blackmail as the starting point.

"Know the enemy before you act".

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: would you vote for this party? Reply #3 - Feb 24^th, 2012 at 12:25pm How do locals know which products are more sustainable when the total cost (including ecological footprint) is not available?
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Jan

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #4 - Feb 24^th, 2012 at 12:40pm

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2012 at 12:25pm:

How do locals know which products are more sustainable when the total cost (including ecological footprint) is not available?

What kind of dumb question is that????

For someone seeking to establish a sustainability party, that is really, really dumb!!!

Do you consider LOCALS (ie voters) are all as dumb as you seem to be.

When are you ever going to post something substantial and KNOWLEDGEABLE?

Your total ignorance still astounds me.

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Soren

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #5 - Feb 24^th, 2012 at 12:48pm

Jan wrote on Feb 24^th, 2012 at 10:58am:

Then there is inner city traffic. Stop all fuel guzzling vehicles, and direct local councils (or private enterprise) to provide and rent out electric carts (golf buggies?), and other non-fuel burning vehicles.

How would you recharge those non-fuel burning electric carts, you eyewateringly thick numpty? With anti-Zionist hot air?

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« Last Edit: Feb 24^th, 2012 at 1:03pm by Soren »

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Jan

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #6 - Feb 24^th, 2012 at 6:14pm

Soren wrote on Feb 24^th, 2012 at 12:48pm:

Jan wrote on Feb 24^th, 2012 at 10:58am:

Then there is inner city traffic. Stop all fuel guzzling vehicles, and direct local councils (or private enterprise) to provide and rent out electric carts (golf buggies?), and other non-fuel burning vehicles.

How would you recharge those non-fuel burning electric carts, you eyewateringly thick numpty? With anti-Zionist hot air?

Ever hear of Solar Photovoltaics you dip-sh!t?

Are you FD? You seem to follow him to defend his stupidity???

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freediver

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #7 - Feb 24^th, 2012 at 6:19pm

Not knowing every little detail about the ecological footprint of every product you buy or use in your supply chain is not dumb. Expecting people to know all this, and then somehow figure out how to take into account all the competing priorities, is stupid.

An imbalance of information and awareness is one of the fundamental ways in which real economies fall short of the benefits of an idealised market based economy. It simply does not make sense to expect everyone to be able to somehow accomodate that shortcoming. It is impossible. That is why there is a rational justification for top-down interference.

Otherwise you get people thinking it is rational to rely on simplistic 'magic bullet' style technical solutions that do more harm than good - such as your suggestions.

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Jan

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #8 - Feb 24^th, 2012 at 11:13pm

Quote:

How do locals know which products are more sustainable when the total cost (including ecological footprint) is not available?

Huh! What's not available? Building ecologically leaves no disasterous "cost". Where are the responsible ecological benefits in the way we build today? Where are the ecological benefits in fuel guzzlers, and the traffic mayhem they create? Small steps in the right direction lead to quicker outcomes at very little 'cost'.

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2012 at 6:19pm:

Not knowing every little detail about the ecological footprint of every product you buy or use in your supply chain is not dumb. Expecting people to know all this, and then somehow figure out how to take into account all the competing priorities, is stupid.

Stupid is as stupid does. Who said anything about expecting people to know every little detail? By exercising sensible 'priorities', and seeking the information required to impliment those priorities in appropriate order, and allow proper consultation of the effectiveness of any action taken IS informing everyone involved.

Quote:

An imbalance of information and awareness is one of the fundamental ways in which real economies fall short of the benefits of an idealised market based economy. It simply does not make sense to expect everyone to be able to somehow accomodate that shortcoming. It is impossible. That is why there is a rational justification for top-down interference.

Idealised market based economy is the way our governments operate now, and is the reason we fall short of community based and sensible objectives. Name me ONE politician who knows everything about the policies they introduce or the consequences of actions taken?

Quote:

Otherwise you get people thinking it is rational to rely on simplistic 'magic bullet' style technical solutions that do more harm than good - such as your suggestions.

So you know every little detail about my suggestions to quantitatively say that they can't work? Give me examples so that I can explain them fully to you, instead of just making 'complicated' pollie speak interjections.
It seems to me that 'complicated' magic bullet style 'technical' solutions are what is wrong with this world. Simplistic, or more correctly 'simple' ideas and solutions are the ones that have a better chance of success. "Complication" is what we have in our society today, we need to go back to the "kiss" style of operation.

You speak as though you agree with the "too many laws, too many rules" operation as a 'sensible' way to operate, a way that complicates a smooth transition to a more sustainable way of life.

A typical politicians response. Lotsa words, little meaning.

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freediver

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #9 - Feb 25^th, 2012 at 9:27am

Quote:

Huh! What's not available?

The information needed to make the judegment calls you expect everyone to make.

Quote:

Building ecologically leaves no disasterous "cost".

Sure, if you have all the information and get it right. But not if you do so out of delusion. Otherwise you will probably just make it worse, or live in squalor for no good reason.

Quote:

Where are the responsible ecological benefits in the way we build today?

In the building standards you have been arguing against.

Quote:

Stupid is as stupid does. Who said anything about expecting people to know every little detail? By exercising sensible 'priorities', and seeking the information required to impliment those priorities in appropriate order, and allow proper consultation of the effectiveness of any action taken IS informing everyone involved.

So in other words people have to guess the right priorities, then everything works out fine? You certainly have not had much luck guessing. That is eactly the sort of mindlessness the current agenda seeks to avoid.

Quote:

Idealised market based economy is the way our governments operate now

Far from it.

Quote:

Name me ONE politician who knows everything about the policies they introduce or the consequences of actions taken?

So you now argue that politicians who have no idea what they are doing somehow stumbled across an idealised market based economy?

Quote:

So you know every little detail about my suggestions to quantitatively say that they can't work?

I know enough to know that you are wrong. All the math will tell you is how wrong you are.

Quote:

Give me examples so that I can explain them fully to you, instead of just making 'complicated' pollie speak interjections.

I am talking about economics. I have given you examples already.

Quote:

It seems to me that 'complicated' magic bullet style 'technical' solutions are what is wrong with this world.

Yet you still promote solar PV, despite it being comparitively expensive and riddled with environmental isssues. A rational economic mechanism will achieve the best technical solutions and leave behind those that are too expensive (eg retrofitting rooftop solar PV).

Quote:

Simplistic, or more correctly 'simple' ideas and solutions are the ones that have a better chance of success.

Why? Carbon taxes to me seem the simplest of all solutions. Would you agree that it is therefor the best?

Do you think the problems we face are technical in nature and that our problem is that we keep getting it wrong technically?

Is your solution to go back to living in caves and mud huts?

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Jan

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #10 - Feb 25^th, 2012 at 5:53pm

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2012 at 9:27am:

[quote]Huh! What's not available?unquote

The information needed to make the judegment calls you expect everyone to make.

WHAT JUDGEMENT CALLS?? All that's required to operate at a LOCAL level is the desire to do something that will benefit the whole community and to make sure your local council know your aims.

I was married to the former Mayor of my community and know how little they will do if they aren't kept informed of what residents really want.

Quote:

Building ecologically leaves no disasterous "cost".unquote

Sure, if you have all the information and get it right. But not if you do so out of delusion. Otherwise you will probably just make it worse, or live in squalor for no good reason.

Duh! That's what council 'Planning' is for ... nowhere have I said everyone should just go out and build a shanty town.

Quote:

Where are the responsible ecological benefits in the way we build today? unquote

In the building standards you have been arguing against.

Where have I ever said NO building CODES ... it's no wonder you come up with your idiosyncratic views ... You do not 'comprehend' the English language.

The building standards we use today could hardly be called 'ecological' ... Cement jungle is more appropriate, and leaves a cess pool of waste behind .. Local codes are all about having neat rows of boxes in pre assigned colours. Ecologically friendly housing follows nature, and nature is beautiful but doesn't always follow NEAT.

Quote:

Stupid is as stupid does. Who said anything about expecting people to know every little detail? By exercising sensible 'priorities', and seeking the information required to impliment those priorities in appropriate order, and allow proper consultation of the effectiveness of any action taken IS informing everyone involved.unquote

So in other words people have to guess the right priorities, then everything works out fine? You certainly have not had much luck guessing. That is eactly the sort of mindlessness the current agenda seeks to avoid.

Do you actually engage your brain before dreaming up these replies, or apply LOGIC?
"Your" mindlessness simply amazes me. You are the quintessential politician who thinks everyone but himself are uneducated morons.
Still I wouldn't expect anything else from a brainwashed zionist that reveals they have a 'current Agenda'.

Quote:

Idealised market based economy is the way our governments operate now

Far from it.

Enlighten me! how do they operate then?

Quote:

Name me ONE politician who knows everything about the policies they introduce or the consequences of actions taken? unquote

So you now argue that politicians who have no idea what they are doing somehow stumbled across an idealised market based economy?

Yep "politicians who have no idea what they are doing", have no idea what they're doing. They take their cues from their zionist masters and learn by rote.

Quote:

So you know every little detail about my suggestions to quantitatively say that they can't work? unquote

I know enough to know that you are wrong. All the math will tell you is how wrong you are. [quote]

Examples please!!! And do use correct grammar or I may not comprehend your reply.

[quote]Give me examples so that I can explain them fully to you, instead of just making 'complicated' pollie speak interjections.. unquote

I am talking about economics. I have given you examples already.

Where was that? I saw no economic breakdown in any of your replies.

Get technical. I follow that path much better.

Quote:

It seems to me that 'complicated' magic bullet style 'technical' solutions are what is wrong with this world. unquote]

Yet you still promote solar PV, despite it being comparitively expensive and riddled with environmental isssues. A rational economic mechanism will achieve the best technical solutions and leave behind those that are too expensive (eg retrofitting rooftop solar PV).

ROTFLMAO SMOOMN ... What makes production cheaper (could it be 'increased' production)? and are the environmental issues of PVs more harmful than gas guzzlers and petrol/diesel outlets? You call THAT rational economics??? Typical pollie response.

Quote:

Simplistic, or more correctly 'simple' ideas and solutions are the ones that have a better chance of success. unquote]

1. Why? Carbon taxes to me seem the simplest of all solutions. Would you agree that it is therefor the best?

2. Do you think the problems we face are technical in nature and that our problem is that we keep getting it wrong technically?

3, Is your solution to go back to living in caves and mud huts?

1. That's because zionist and polliticians know that a carbon tax IS easy to impliment, a stroke of the pen DONE!!! it also sends production prices soaring and the cost of living goes with it ... This produces more money in the coffers of the already mega-rich and they laugh all the way to their zionist bankers, while "the people" are left with overwhelming debt.

2. It's governments and their solutions that are technical, to keep the Bankers and Multinationals happy and onside. And yes THEY keep getting it wrong, for the country and to the detriment of 'the people'.

3. Well, yes (in a sense), Bermed houses are great especially for 'the environment footprint', and mud brick, and pise have stood the test of time for thousands of years ... many 1000 years+ buildings are extremely beautiful and still standing in MUSLIM countries, and in Sth America.

There's a country town in Vic. that specialises in beautiful mud brick homes ... Sadly they are built for the rich 'professionals' and not the needy.

That's Pollie tech for ya!!!

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freediver

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #11 - Feb 25^th, 2012 at 10:15pm

Quote:

The building standards we use today could hardly be called 'ecological' ... Cement jungle is more appropriate, and leaves a cess pool of waste behind .. Local codes are all about having neat rows of boxes in pre assigned colours. Ecologically friendly housing follows nature, and nature is beautiful but doesn't always follow NEAT.

The building standards set minimum standards for energy efficiency etc.

Here is an explanation of the green tax shift concept:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/green-tax-shift/green-tax-shift.html

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Jan

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Re: would you vote for this party?
Reply #12 - Feb 26^th, 2012 at 4:39pm

freediver wrote on Feb 25^th, 2012 at 10:15pm:

[quote]The building standards set minimum standards for energy efficiency etc.

Here is an explanation of the green tax shift concept:

Today we have the technology to build self sufficient sustainable homes, even in the cities, providing their own electricity via Solar, and wind, recycled and greywater systems (even systems that produce water from air), and rainwater tanks.

Builings of mudbrick, pise/adobe, bermed, Domes, geodesic domes, reclaimed timber ... homes that leave no footprint, no carbon emissions, and no waste. Require no heating or cooling.

There sould be no CARBON tax ... But I agree there needs to be some sort of levy/tax for sustainable solutions and natural energy production.

But using the name carbon attached to a tax, is sending out the wrong signal and a means for governments to abuse the system.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47481 At my desk.	Re: would you vote for this party? Reply #13 - Feb 26^th, 2012 at 7:04pm So what should it be called?
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Jan Senior Member Offline Elite Politics Posts: 411 SA Gender:	Re: would you vote for this party? Reply #14 - Feb 26^th, 2012 at 9:56pm freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2012 at 7:04pm: So what should it be called? Hhhhow about the sustainable tax ....
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