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Question: Is this logic correct?



« Created by: iconoclast on: Feb 13th, 2011 at 11:01am »

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Please critique my logic here (Read 4721 times)
Equitist
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #30 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:06pm
 


iconoclast wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:02pm:
Equitist wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 4:19pm:
Then again, it could also be something to do with the rise of violent and corrupt right wing extremists: -

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297475999/79#79

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 4:14pm:
'working class' riff raff?

One of the kids who was most likely involved was the son of a Tory MP.....

Though dont hold me to that.





Correlation is not causation as you are obviously asserting.

But given a major motivation for crime in the past was a justifiable
need to survive then as the survival issue has receded, why haven't we seen drops in crime rates across several decades?



Well, actually we have seen drops in a range of crime rates - apparently you're relying upon the wrong stats...along with your false assumptions...

Perhaps you've just been watching too much TV!?




PS I've gotta log off for now - but I shall pop back later.

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Lisa Jones
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #31 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:17pm
 
To the OP .. is this a TAFE/Uni essay question?

If so .. it's probably best you contact your lecturer/tutor because these people will be able to offer you the best advice/guidance given the fact that these questions are contextualized by the specific curriculum programs on which they are based.

All the best with everything.
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HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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Equitist
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #32 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:25pm
 



Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:17pm:
To the OP .. is this a TAFE/Uni essay question?

If so .. it's probably best you contact your lecturer/tutor because these people will be able to offer you the best advice/guidance given the fact that these questions are contextualized by the specific curriculum programs on which they are based.

All the best with everything.



Apparently not....


Equitist wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:03pm:
iconoclast wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 4:57pm:
Equitist wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 4:51pm:
iconoclast wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 4:40pm:
Dnarever wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 3:31pm:
Quote:
My claim is that a considerable % of violent, deviant and dysfunctional behaviour is a result of an individual's perceived RELATIVE position in society and not just a lack of resources.




I feel the major flaw in the argument is the very high probability that neither of these options are the one primary cause though they can both be minor contributors.

It is nowhere near as simplistic as this or it would be no problem as it could be easily fixed.


Things can be simple and still not fixable. Death in the end is simple, and not fixable.

We appear to have solved the basic survival problems of most Australians. Yet crime continues despite growing affluence and welfare support. I can only conclude that crime is no longer a survival issue but one of perceived deprivation i.e relative position in society.

Any crime (white collar) or not can be used to redress this perception. But we don't steal loaves of bread because that's no longer a deprivation.


Are you, by any chance, doing some research for a high school essay!?





No, in fact after 30 years of tertiary teaching, i never wish to see an essay again.


OK...I'm now struggling to hazard a guess, as to what subject matter you may have been an authority on...





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Lisa Jones
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #33 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:33pm
 
To be brutally honest .. I didn't think it was a high school essay question Equitist.

Actually .. having read through the OP again .. it sounds to me more like uni post grad related course work.

One of my close friends is presently completing a masters in Social Work  .. and she's going through similar learning curve experiences. She's got a good Uni lecturer/supervisor though .. and that really helps.

Then again .. the OP may merely be debating a particular issue with someone .. I know I do that all the time these days with my significant "know it all/intellectual" other .. sighs lol Smiley
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« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:39pm by Lisa Jones »  

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)
 
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Equitist
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #34 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:48pm
 


Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:33pm:
To be brutally honest .. I didn't think it was a high school essay question Equitist.

Actually .. having read through the OP again .. it sounds to me more like uni post grad related course work.

One of my close friends is presently completing a masters in Social Work  .. and she's going through similar learning curve experiences. She's got a good Uni lecturer/supervisor though .. and that really helps.

Then again .. the OP may merely be debating a particular issue with someone .. I know I do that all the time these days with my significant "know it all/intellectual" other .. sighs lol Smiley


Suffice to say that: I was being a tad facetious with my original question (and other posts)!

IM(not-so)HO the OP suggests a juxtaposition of reasonably-well-educated background with a willfully ignorant or narrowly-developed mind...

Alas!  We may yet be dazzled by a brilliant solution to the perceived problem!?

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bridonta
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #35 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 10:55pm
 
when there are poverty ... there are crimes .. when there are injustice .. there are crimes .. the biggest of all are those govts in charge as they just don't care about the whole but only work for themselves and their friends minority rich .. just look at revolutions recently will tell all ..
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iconoclast
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #36 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 11:38am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:33pm:
To be brutally honest .. I didn't think it was a high school essay question Equitist.

Actually .. having read through the OP again .. it sounds to me more like uni post grad related course work.

One of my close friends is presently completing a masters in Social Work  .. and she's going through similar learning curve experiences. She's got a good Uni lecturer/supervisor though .. and that really helps.

Then again .. the OP may merely be debating a particular issue with someone .. I know I do that all the time these days with my significant "know it all/intellectual" other .. sighs lol Smiley



Interesting that one has to have a "purpose" to pose an issue. Doesn't anyone just think/debate any more or is everything utilitarian,
be suspicious, look for the angle.

Jeez
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iconoclast
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #37 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 11:42am
 
bridonta wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 10:55pm:
when there are poverty ... there are crimes .. when there are injustice .. there are crimes .. the biggest of all are those govts in charge as they just don't care about the whole but only work for themselves and their friends minority rich .. just look at revolutions recently will tell all ..


My point is that poverty is not what it was. A person on the dole can walk to the corner and buy fruit that roman emperor's couldn't. They have world quality water and medical attention. They are certainly not malnourished since Australians are more obese.

My point is that poverty at the level of survival was once a valid excuse for committing crimes. People will always survive in Oz but still
crime had not reduced in comparison to the gains in affluence.

The lifespan of victorian england was very low due to terrible living conditions. Crime was a valid strategy to survive.

Is a person on the dole in Australian really poor? Not compared to SEA and not compared to history.
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bridonta
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #38 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 11:48am
 
to be honest you just don't compare yourself with people some where else but here .. just like in your work place or study class .. It's the gap between rich and poor and people just felt they are being ripped off by those in charges .. that's what happened in Egypt , Tunisia .. and this has been the most feared factor for those commies in power in China ..
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iconoclast
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #39 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 11:59am
 
Equitist wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:06pm:
iconoclast wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:02pm:
Equitist wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 4:19pm:
Then again, it could also be something to do with the rise of violent and corrupt right wing extremists: -

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1297475999/79#79

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 4:14pm:
'working class' riff raff?

One of the kids who was most likely involved was the son of a Tory MP.....

Though dont hold me to that.





Correlation is not causation as you are obviously asserting.

But given a major motivation for crime in the past was a justifiable
need to survive then as the survival issue has receded, why haven't we seen drops in crime rates across several decades?



Well, actually we have seen drops in a range of crime rates - apparently you're relying upon the wrong stats...along with your false assumptions...

Perhaps you've just been watching too much TV!?




PS I've gotta log off for now - but I shall pop back later.




So crime has dropped? Not if we look at gross indicators e.g.


Between 1995 and 2007 sexual assault went from 1000/month to about 1600/month. See here

http://www.aic.gov.au/en/statistics/violent%20crime/sexual%20assault.aspx

Crimes involvlng violence went from 600/100,000 to over 800/100,000  in the same time span. http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/violent%20crime.aspx

Homicide stats have fallen very slightly however this may reflect gains in medical trauma management. See here

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide.aspx

Drug offences look flat. http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/drug/offences.aspx


While it is always possible to show whatever you want in stats by looking at subpopulations and regions, gross indicators are hard to explain away.

Also what I find disappointing about responses so far is that they drift from the debate and the issues and instead debate ME as a person or what my motives are.

If you are unable to disengage from playing the person instead of debating the issues then there is no hope for rational discussion which I suspect is the very reason that politics is such an ineffective, flawed and hopeless way of running anything.

What would it matter if I was a schoolkid, uni student, retiree, nazi or homicidal maniac. Issues are issues.

If you follow your line of reasoning then democracy comes crashing down because the person raising an issue is somehow not as "valid" or legitimate as someone else.



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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #40 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 12:04pm
 
bridonta wrote on Feb 14th, 2011 at 11:48am:
to be honest you just don't compare yourself with people some where else but here .. just like in your work place or study class .. It's the gap between rich and poor and people just felt they are being ripped off by those in charges .. that's what happened in Egypt , Tunisia .. and this has been the most feared factor for those commies in power in China ..



This is exactly my point.

The term RELATIVE means umm relative you know compared to others. Hence people in our society feel RELATIVELY deprived.

IN ABSOLUTE terms (you know like counting calories of food you have, number of clinics you have access to etc) then ALL people in OZ live very well and certainly have made large gains in affluence over 40 years.

Yet our crimes involving violence and robbery are increasing.

My point is that anyone can use relative deprivation as an excuse (you have more than me) but in absolute terms, we all have enough.
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #41 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 12:08pm
 
bridonta wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 10:55pm:
when there are poverty ... there are crimes .. when there are injustice .. there are crimes .. the biggest of all are those govts in charge as they just don't care about the whole but only work for themselves and their friends minority rich .. just look at revolutions recently will tell all ..



Most people fighting injustice are not criminals. Fighting a regime that is corrupt and abusive is fine.

Stealing TVs from others (and the poor often prey on each other as much as they do on the rich) is not a political act.

Unless Cash Converters is a voting booth of course.

There is a big difference between egyptians in Cairo and 10 blokes
robbing someone at 2.00AM
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #42 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 12:13pm
 
Equitist wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:48pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 13th, 2011 at 5:33pm:
To be brutally honest .. I didn't think it was a high school essay question Equitist.

Actually .. having read through the OP again .. it sounds to me more like uni post grad related course work.

One of my close friends is presently completing a masters in Social Work  .. and she's going through similar learning curve experiences. She's got a good Uni lecturer/supervisor though .. and that really helps.

Then again .. the OP may merely be debating a particular issue with someone .. I know I do that all the time these days with my significant "know it all/intellectual" other .. sighs lol Smiley


Suffice to say that: I was being a tad facetious with my original question (and other posts)!

IM(not-so)HO the OP suggests a juxtaposition of reasonably-well-educated background with a willfully ignorant or narrowly-developed mind...

Alas!  We may yet be dazzled by a brilliant solution to the perceived problem!?




And does it matter that the person voting i.e. expressing an opinion is black, a student, well educated, or what? Is there vote worth less?

Do you mean to imply that any of this changes the validiity of ideas
and argument or the right of people to express themselves and seek rational, considered discussion devoid of personal issues?

Can you accept that discussion and analysis actually precede solutions?

Or do we just "do politics" and make it up on the run?
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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #43 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 12:31pm
 


Noted.

I don't think that it is helpful to assume subjective 'excuses' for crime - rather to objectively look into the range of psycho-socio-economic factors at play...

Crime by poor people has always had moral and financial elements - just as high level corruption and the accumulation of obscene wealth have always had moral and financial elements...

Surely, the issue with both violent and money and property-related crime, is the interaction of human nature with the broader socio-economic environment!?

Surely, the issue of any crime stems from one's self-esteem, sense of entitlement and capacity for respect and empathy - and one's socio-economic status (i.e. one's degree of integration within the broader socio-economic climate) - which impacts upon one's relationships/interactions with family members, friends, acquaintances, strangers, employers - and commercial, community and government organisations!?

Either way, middle class and rich people commit monetary and property crimes every day - and presumably they do so from an egocentric perspective of 'entitlement' to an even larger slice of prosperity - so, I don't get the the over-emphasis on 'poverty' or 'relative deprivation' as an 'excuse' for criminality...

BTW, we're yet to be provided with the possible solutions foreshadowed in the OP...


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« Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2011 at 1:02pm by Equitist »  

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Re: Please critique my logic here
Reply #44 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 1:35pm
 
Quote:
That a very large % of crime and social dysfunctionality is not a function of absolute level of of resource access (i.e. poverty).

My claim is that a considerable % of violent, deviant and dysfunctional behaviour is a result of an individual's pereceived RELATIVE position in society and not just a lack of resources.


"Relative position" in society is how 'poverty' is determined....

There is no real 'absolute' level of resource access....
Different countries, and societies have different levels of 'resource access' and different poverty levels....
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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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