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Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour (Read 2706 times)
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Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour
Jan 22nd, 2011 at 7:46pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Jan 22nd, 2011 at 5:09pm:
Islam is a system, if the system is implemented, it can be held accountable, if it's not, it can't... pretty logical I'd think.


Abu are you saying that Islam cannot affect the behaviour of a Muslim unless it is imposed by law, or are you merely denying any responsibility on the part of Islam unless it is imposed by law?
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abu_rashid
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Re: Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour
Reply #1 - Jan 22nd, 2011 at 11:03pm
 
Quote:
slam affect Muslim's behaviour


One would hope so, since it came to change humanity, to raise them up from the depths of ignorance into the heights of enlightenment.

Quote:
Abu are you saying that Islam cannot affect the behaviour of a Muslim unless it is imposed by law


No.

Quote:
or are you merely denying any responsibility on the part of Islam unless it is imposed by law?


Islam is a complete system, and if for instance the judicial system is not implemented in a society, then there's no way you can blame the actions of that society in judicial matters on Islam. I explained this to you in the original thread already. I know you're not interested in reading the logical answers, but merely trying to dig for some 'dirt', hence your opening of this pointless topic.

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Re: Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour
Reply #2 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 9:07am
 
So if a Muslim dominated society impliments death by stoning as a punishment before they get around to implimenting all the other aspects of shariah law, it has nothing at all to do with Islam? But once they do impliment the rest of it then it suddenly is about Islam?
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Re: Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour
Reply #3 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 1:33pm
 
Quote:
So if a Muslim dominated society impliments death by stoning as a punishment before they get around to implimenting all the other aspects of shariah law, it has nothing at all to do with Islam?


Do you mean society or state?

If a society implements something, not on a state level, then it's vigilantism, plain and simple, and no Islam has no attachment to it.

Quote:
But once they do impliment the rest of it then it suddenly is about Islam?


Islam is a complete and complimentary system, if a state were to implement some parts of it, then it's not implementing Islam. Just as an example, if a state implements the punishment for theft (amputation of the hand) but none of the economic laws of Islam which should lead to a society in which theft is not necessary, then it's not implementing Islam, and that punishment has nothing to do with Islam. The Islamic punishment is intrinsically linked with many other aspects of the Islamic system. If those other aspects were not implemented, then enacting the punishment is not done according to Islamic dictates.

That's a pretty simple concept to understand, I'd think, for anyone who is not merely looking for 'dirt' on Islam. As Annie said, she asks a question to know the answer, you ask a question as a pretext to adding to your overall argument about Islam.
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Re: Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour
Reply #4 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 4:09pm
 
I've heard this claim before. But the aspects of Islam that prevent apostasy, adultury etc were the punishment itself, which is death by stoning.

Also, pointing out that the punishment does not reflect the entirety of Islamic law misses the point completely. Unless you suggest that people abandon the religion with the state, then people will still be guided by it, even when it is not imposed on them. If a religious leader issues a fatwa on an otherwise innocent person, people are going to be guided by it, not because one person issued a fatwa, but because the religion supports it.

If a state collapses leaving behind a culture that stones people to death and sees it as their religious imperative to stone people to death, then people are going to be stoned to death.

If a religion tells people it is just to stone people to death, it is going to happen.

Suppose you lived in the middle east and were personally called upon to pass judgement on a person who committed adultery or apostasy. Would you respond by trying to overthrow the government so you could do it properly? Would you refuse to participate? Would you participate and let Islam guide your decision?

Suppose you were in tribal Afghanistan and had genuine power in your area. Would you start issuing death sentences for these 'crimes'? Or would you insist on setting up the welfare state first? When do you draw the line?

Suppose someone was trying to set up a democracy and your fellow Muslims were helping them and taking shelter from them. Would you kill your fellow Muslims, or go along with the new democracy?

These are the situations that modern Muslims find themselves in. They are tough decisions. To pretend that Islam will not guide them and inevitably lead to people getting killed is pretty naive. When the Caliphate collapses, people still have to get on with their lives. They still have to make tough decisions. They cannot just suspend everything until the Caliphate magically reappears and saves them from themselves.
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Re: Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour
Reply #5 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 8:21pm
 
Quote:
I've heard this claim before. But the aspects of Islam that prevent apostasy, adultury etc were the punishment itself, which is death by stoning.


See right then and there your understanding of Islam is clearly deficient and distorted.

the aspects of Islam that prevent adultery for instance are not the punishment itself. It is one aspect, but by no means the only, nor even the major one.

For instance in a Western society, there is pornography everywhere, sex-marketing strewn across every billboard and TV set, promotion of promiscuity and 'experimentation' amongst youth in schools, and generally a culture that dictates to youth their self-worth is based on their ability to obtain sexual conquests. This culture has also been spread to some degree to the post-Islamic world, and is present there. So if someone executes a person for committing adultery (which is extra-judicial vigilantism in anyone's book), then it has nothing to do with Islam, and is complete separate from, and in opposition to the Islamic system, since the Islamic system does not prescribe such a punishment without having a society that's free of this kind of vice to begin with.

I am quite sure I've explained this to you before fd. I honestly feel you're just trying your darndest to waste my time.

Quote:
If a state collapses leaving behind a culture that stones people to death and sees it as their religious imperative to stone people to death, then people are going to be stoned to death.


So if the U.S collapses, and a new post-Democratic state is setup in it's lands, but the people still cling onto the ideals of democracy, and someone for instance burns the national flag, would a vigilante who murdered that person be acting according to Democracy? Would democracy be responsible for his actions? Because the Democratic government of the U.S had previously made treason a capital offence in that land?

Because that's about as related to democracy, as a nutcase murdering his sister for talking to a strange man, is related to Islam.

Quote:
If a religion tells people it is just to stone people to death, it is going to happen.


But it doesn't tell people to stone people to death, anymore than democracy tells people to stick electrodes in people's heads and fry them to death.

You still can't get it into your thick head that a state prescribing the death penalty is nothing to do with individuals running around committing extra-judicial murders. Until you wrap your head around that, I'm not wasting any more time discussing with you. It's really just a waste of my time and yours. Your head is rock solid... logic and common sense simply cannot penetrate it. Au revoir.
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Re: Does Islam affect Muslim's behaviour
Reply #6 - Jan 23rd, 2011 at 9:54pm
 
Quote:
So if the U.S collapses, and a new post-Democratic state is setup in it's lands, but the people still cling onto the ideals of democracy, and someone for instance burns the national flag, would a vigilante who murdered that person be acting according to Democracy?


What does burning a flag have to do with democracy? Where is the religious imperative? How can you misunderstand it so badly, after growing up here?

Suppose you lived in the middle east and were personally called upon to pass judgement on a person who committed adultery or apostasy. Would you respond by trying to overthrow the government so you could do it properly? Would you refuse to participate? Would you participate and let Islam guide your decision?

Suppose you were in tribal Afghanistan and had genuine power in your area. Would you start issuing death sentences for these 'crimes'? Or would you insist on setting up the welfare state first? When do you draw the line?

Suppose someone was trying to set up a democracy and your fellow Muslims were helping them and taking shelter from them. Would you kill your fellow Muslims, or go along with the new democracy?

These are the situations that modern Muslims find themselves in. They are tough decisions. To pretend that Islam will not guide them and inevitably lead to people getting killed is pretty naive. When the Caliphate collapses, people still have to get on with their lives. They still have to make tough decisions. They cannot just suspend everything until the Caliphate magically reappears and saves them from themselves.

The more Muslims rely on Islam for guidance in these situations, the more it renders them incapable of handling the realities of the modern world.
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