Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 10^th, 2011 at 12:02pm:




Karnal,
I agree with you, the West has corrupted itself, chasing Mammon and pleasure.

We all have a choice, in how we conduct ourselves in this life.
We all choose.
We all make choices.
In this life, we cannot escape that requirement [to make choices].

BUT, we ourselves, are the 'gatekeepers' of our hearts.
We choose which spirits we allow [invite] into our hearts.
And nobody [and no spirit] can compel us, to join with them.
And no spirit can compel us to do what is evil.

Nobody compels us, or can compel us, to choose the evil.
When we choose the evil, we *ourselves* choose it.


+++

Regards ISLAM, and our tolerance of ISLAM and moslems, within our midst;

If we tolerate evil, and wickedness, in others, WE WILL BECOME EVIL AND WICKED OURSELVES.
.....and today ppl just don't get that truth, IN FACT THEY SEEM TO STRENUOUSLY DENY THAT LOGIC.

When we embrace the concept of 'tolerance', of what is clearly evil,
...we OURSELVES become the evil we tolerate.

i.e.
A good person, cannot tolerate evil, in his/her presence.

i.e.
NO PERSON CAN TOLERATE EVIL, ....UNLESS THAT PERSON IS EVIL.


And our [so called!] 'tolerance' of evil, is not tolerance.

Our 'tolerance' of evil, merely reveals the wickedness which is ALREADY within us!


+++

If we choose to embrace [and be 'tolerant'] those who are wicked,
...we OURSELVES, always become wicked.

e.g.
I have two buckets.
The first bucket is full of clean, fresh water.
The second bucket is full of sewage.

Q.
If i pour both buckets into a third container, what do i get?

A.
A third container, full of diluted sewage.

Conclusion?
While i could safely drink from the 1st bucket, i could *not* safely drink from the 2nd bucket, or the 3rd container.
So it is with evil, that is 'tolerated' by good people.

AND further, we do not 'improve' wicked people, BY BEING TOLERANT, OF THOSE WICKED PEOPLE.

WICKED PEOPLE, are wicked, because they CHOOSE to embrace wickedness.

e.g.
A 'good' moslem.
A moslem, is a person who chooses to embrace a philosophy [ISLAM] which tells moslems that it is 'lawful' for moslems, to kill those who do not believe, as they believe.


+++

No matter how many times we repeat the phrase, "Tolerance is desirable, and good.",
...our tolerance of what is clearly evil, is not a virtue.

Such 'tolerance' is rather, a process, a progression.

Whenever we choose to become tolerant of evil [in our midst], it is certain, as night follows day, that we ourselves, will become evil.

Very interesting discussion, Yadda, but you're going to be a very busy bee indeed if you can't tolerate other people's "evil."

Personally, I think one of the hardest parts of practicing ethical/spiritual development is the toleration of "other people's" wickedness. So hard to keep our nose out of other people's business! As you say, what we usually find is that this wickedness exists within ourselves, and this is why we react so strongly to it: "other people's" wickedness is usually a reflection of our own.

However, the first step is not to fight it, but accept it. People always have very good reasons for their wickedness. No one believes that they are evil - they always think that they are fighting someone else's wickedness. Their "evil" stems from a cause they believe to be just.

Hitler, for example, didn't think he was evil by killing Jews. He thought he was good for saving the blood of the Aryan race. Judgements of good and evil are always made by others - and perhaps God - but I guess we find that out later. This is why our own judgements are so pointless: judge not, as ye yourself shall be judged.

But in this world, the cycle continues; people fighting, tit for tat, the wickedness of others, and all of them believing they have right on their side. Gott mit uns. Most of the wickedness in this world stems from retribution, revenge, judgement and blame.

Jesus, however, taught another way. He taught that the Kingdom lies within - not without. The way to salvation is to look within yourself and erradicate the wickedness within your own heart. No one else can do it for you.

I agree. We are the gatekeepers of our own hearts - and no one else's. The first step in erradicating "evil", as you put it, is to observe and understand it. If you just seek to erradicate it, it will return, time and time again.

A more nuanced discussion of good and evil is, insh'allah, a subject for another day. But to erradicate wickedness - in either ourselves or others - we must first learn to understand it.

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 10^th, 2011 at 1:46pm:




Karnal,

Thank you for your reasoned response.




Humans are imperfect creatures, that is our burden.

And as imperfect creatures, we cannot approach [a holy] God, it is impossible.

But, we can learn, from our errors.

And we can repent our errors, when we are prepared to acknowledge them.

And when we do this in a heartfelt fashion, the spirit of God will try then, to approach us.

God is a spirit being.

God is our creator, and our [spirit] father.

And he is just.




+++

Isaiah 48:17
Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Psalms 25:12
What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.
13  His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.
14  The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will shew them his covenant.

Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Job 28:28
And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Proverbs 9:10
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Psalms 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2  Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 11^th, 2011 at 11:48pm:


Maybe, but you're just shifting the blame onto Yadda. As soon as Yadda starts acting on his evil-cleansing fantasies, then yes, I agree that something should be done.

Until then, we're just fantasising about fantasies, and the result of this is just more ignorance and division.

Sadly, Yadda's neurosis IS normal (although not yet psychosis), but a solution that seeks to condemn, ban or banish won't do anything but place it further underground. See how easily racism can come to the surface and how hard it is to erradicate. See how quickly the Hitlers and Pauline Hansons of the world can rise and fall.

The same exists in the mind. Yadda won't change unless he sees the benefits that come from people with different views to himself, and he won't see this if he is merely forced to recant - either by the sword or social exclusion. A truth, I think, can only be replaced with another truth. Things that exist can't be destroyed, just changed. Yadda needs to see for himself that there are good Muslims, and that Islam is not inherently evil.

Will he? Maybe. A number of born-again Christians have changed teams. But the point is not to change teams but get out of the blame-game entirely.

Of course Hitler should have been prevented. However, Hitler can be seen as part of a larger crisis in Western thought, a crisis of science, technology and social engineering that, in Australia, saw Aboriginal children placed in white institutions and in America, saw race laws and forced sterilization of people with disabilities. Hitler can also be seen in an economic context: Germany, a world manufacturing centre, had been scapegoated for WWI, but had the resources and technology to arm itself for WWII. The belief that Hitler was a rogue agent of evil - or that the rest of the Western world did not practice many of the same policies - is a myth.

In essence, Hitler was one of us.

Dividing the world into wickedness/evil on the one side, and right or pure on the other is the cause of many problems in the world. At present, I blame fundamentalism, but I realize that I'm guilty of the same thing myself. Making judgements is tough. Often, we make the wrong judgements automatically because we follow our instincts.

Without understanding, of course, our instincts are almost always wrong.

To make sound judgements, you need to look at the causes of the problem, and this requires empathy for people who's ideas (or race, creed or religion) you might not like. Jesus taught people to love their enemies, and a mistake many Christians make is to do exactly the opposite. Jesus wasn't speaking in riddles or providing a metaphor here, I believe this teaching goes to the heart of his message and purpose in the world. Jesus wanted his followers to love their enemies - not in theory, but in practice.

I'm not a Christian (and nor was Jesus or his disciples), but there are teachings in all religions that are valuable. Islam teaches submission to God, and I think that this is Islam's value. All religions have something to offer if you want to improve yourself, rather than the usual instinct to try to get others (or the world) to change for you.

All religions have inconsistencies too, but there's no point expecting religion to change. It is what it is: a range of ideas and practical ways for people to change themselves and understand who they truly are. The mistake many make is to think that religion itself is the truth. However, the real truth is the realization you get from practicing the teachings of religion. Mere belief means nothing. Whether it's Allah and His prophet or Jesus or Krishna consiousness or whatever, these are only conduits to the actual experience of God.

We are all fanatics. The trick is to realize this and do something about it - much easier said than done!

Abu is in a much better position to answer this than me, but my own answer is that there ARE Muslims who disagree with militant Islam - they just don't put them on Talkback radio.

I've met them, and I've heard them say that Islam preaches against murder of the innocent, and I've heard them say that they disagree with the murder of the innocent, and yes, I've heard them condemn terrorism in the name of Islam.

So they exist.

I'm not sure if they're in a minority or not - I have also heard of Muslims who cheered when 9/11 happened. Just as I've heard of Christians who scoffed when the Pakistani floods killed thousands, or suggested that it was God's work.

It's possible, of course, that you may be right. I haven't heard of strong Muslim leadership against Islamic terrorism, but to be honest, I really don't know.

However, the engagement of ethics and reason and the modern world within Muslim communities is - on the whole - a lot more intense within Muslim communities than in secular ones.

As a non-Muslim, I certainly have no reason to preach Muslim propaganda. This is just my observation.

You don't need to be corrected. You have a belief. This belief will neither save you or assist you in any way. It will not help with your relationship with God, Jesus or other people - if anything, your belief only stands in the way of these things.

If you believe Jesus, the only way you can develop is to remove the beam in your own eye, and not the motes in others.

Sounds more like one of your misconstrued little fantasies.. anyway back to the real world..

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 14^th, 2011 at 12:25pm:



Karnal,
Your assertion is totally illogical.



Karnal,
If what you assert were true, THEN, it logically follows, that not all those persons who refer to themselves as moslems, are moslems [as per being defined 'moslem', by ISLAM, and ISLAM's own foundation texts].


e.g.



Google it.

May 23, 2007
Turkish PM Erdogan in Speech During Term As Istanbul Mayor Attacks Turkey's Constitution, Describing it As 'A Huge Lie':
'Sovereignty Belongs Unconditionally and Always To Allah';
'One Cannot Be a Muslim, and Secular'
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD159607
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016569.php




FURTHER evidence which supports my logic;

A moslem cannot be a moslem without harbouring a deep hatred, and enmity for all non-moslems, ESPECIALLY JEWS.

THAT, is ISLAMIC doctrine, based on Koranic texts;


1/    Koran 2.98 - "...Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith." [i.e. 'Unbelief' is a crime.].
[ - - The enemy of moslems is identified. All of 'unbelieving' mankind, are the declared enemy of moslems.]

2/    Koran 47:8-11 - "...those who reject Allah have no protector."
[ - - Here, it is clearly stated to every good moslem, that moslem enmity, violence, and warfare, against 'those who reject Faith', is morally justified, and 'lawful'. /sarc off]

3/    Koran 4.74-76 - "...those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil:..."
[ - - Those who reject 'Faith' are ipso facto, 'rightly' deemed as being innately evil by ISLAM, and by Allah. Therefore those who reject 'Faith', are the rightful targets of moslem enmity, violence, and warfare.
...'those who reject Faith' are also described [Koran 4.74-76], as 'oppressors' and as, 'the friends of Satan'.]


And of course, the corollary of point #3, that, "...those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil:...", is therefore point #1, "...Allah is an enemy to those who reject Faith.".

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 17^th, 2011 at 11:39am:



Then in what sense are those people moslems ???


Karnal,
If you learn of, and become aware that the 'source' of information about ISLAM [from within ISLAM] is going to lie to you, and present a false narrative [about ISLAM] to you, then if you want correct [and verifiable] information, shouldn't you seriously discount, or at least be very sceptical of the veracity of that information, which coming from within ISLAM itself [when 'speaking' to non-moslems]???


Two points;

#1,
There is no moderate ISLAM.

#2,
ISLAM itself, defines who is a moslem.

+++
Karnal,
It is ISLAM itself, which defines who is a moslem.

Not you, and not those who may claim that they can define themselves as 'moslem', or may choose to refer to themselves as 'moslems'.

To be moslem, a person must accept the doctrines of ISLAM.
Doctrines which insist that it is 'legal' of moslems, to murder anyone who will not submit to ISLAM, and to murder anyone who renounces his faith [in ISLAM].
Doctrines which promote deception as an act of Jihad, against those non-moslems who are too strong [atm] to subjugate.

THOSE ARE FACTS.
AND, within that definition of, 'anyone' [who can legally be killed], is also included ppl who call themselves moslems, but live an un-ISLAMIC lifestyle.



ISLAMIC law texts declare whom moslems can lawfully kill,
....i.e. 'unbelievers'.

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Prophet said: "The bare essence of Islam and the basics of the religion are three [acts], upon which Islam has been established. Whoever leaves one of them becomes an unbeliever and his blood may legally be spilled. [The acts are:] Testifying that there is no God except Allah, the obligatory prayers, and the fast of Ramadan."...."
law/fiqhussunnah/fus3_50
www site...
http://www.islamonline.net/English/Ramadan/1424/10/fiqhi_issues/Rulings_of_Fasti...

n.b. "Whoever......becomes an unbeliever.....his blood may legally be spilled."


The Koran.....

"Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah, He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand.
Koran 47.33-35
i.e. 'Those who disbelieve' they are the enemies of Allah, kill them.
When you have the upper hand, slay them.

The Hadith,
"...If somebody (a moslem) discards his religion, kill him."
bukhari/ #004.052.260



+++

The TRUTH is, that ALL OVER THE WORLD, 'secular moslems' are the 'captives' of fundamentalist moslems, within their own communities.
'Secular moslems' are in 'bondage'  to the fundamentalist moslems.

That is why 'secular moslems' NEVER criticise those fundamentalist moslems WHO ARE WITHIN THEIR OWN COMMUNITIES.
'Secular moslems' within their own moslem communities, have the moral compunction of worms.
They are people who, when they see wickedness before their own eyes, say nothing.

Google;
mohammed silence is consent



+++
Google;
Cleric warns of "alienation" of moslem community

Google;
Muslim cleric calls sentences for convicted Aussie jihadists "harsh," warns of "alienation" of Muslim community



In the way of Jihad, in the way of ISLAM, moslems are taught to project their own guilt, onto their intended victims.
i.e.
According to the moslem community it is always the actions of 'unbelievers', who cause 'radicalisation' within the 'moderate' moslem community.
'Radicalisation' within the moslem community is, NEVER THE FAULT OF ISLAM ITSELF.

And why ???




+++
I intend to reply to your other points.
Perhaps tomorrow.