Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 11:03am:



John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
37  Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.


John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20  For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21  But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


"....lest his deeds should be reproved."

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 7:05pm:



Abu,
You are correct.
I am conflicted, living in this world of wickedness.
I am a human being.


And in contrast to myself, Jesus the Christ asked the Father to forgive those who were executing him.

Luke 23:34
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.....

I am happy to admit, that i am very far below the person of Christ Jesus.

Will my God forgive me for my error Abu?




p.s.
But hey Abu!, at least i am not a Kuffar, eh! ;   

Quote:

"KFC employee loses it when customer asks for bacon"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294224584/6#6



Abu,
Didn't you know Abu, that if the people of "Ancient Israel was intolerant of goyim", and persecuted non-Hebrews [i.e. 'goyim'], that they would be serious covenant breakers, in the eyes of their God?
And would be worthy of death, themselves, as covenant breakers!

as expounded here;
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1294224584/11#11

What is the truth Abu ???

1/ Did you know [...but misrepresented the ancient Israelis] ?

OR;

2/ Did you NOT know that the ancient Israelis would be covenant breakers if they killed or persecuted 'goyim' ???

Which is it Abu?

+++

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...




And, taking all of these facts into account Abu, between us two Abu, who is the real Kuffar ???

"kuffar" = = "...an Arabic word meaning.....[an unbeliever] a person....who hides, denies, or covers the truth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuffar



I am not the one who has to lie, or deceive, OR, to hide, or deny, or cover the truth,
....to 'protect' my faith in the one true God.

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 2:30pm:




Psalms 59:5
Thou therefore, O LORD God of hosts, the God of Israel, awake to visit all the heathen: be not merciful to any wicked transgressors. Selah.


Abu,
In the verses you quote, e.g., your emphasis is placed upon God's wrath upon the heathen "(translated from goyim)".

I would argue that the true meaning, and cause, of God's wrath, is upon, "...any wicked transgressors."


e.g.
In the books of Moses, it is made very clear, WHY the inhabitants of the land were hated by the God of Israel.
i.e.
Not because those inhabitants of the land, were not Hebrews,
...but because the inhabitants of the land, were very wicked people [in God's eyes].



e.g.
Leviticus 18:26
Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27  (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28  That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.

And, the inhabitants of the land were hated by the God of Israel, NOT, because they were 'heathen' [...i.e. people without knowledge of God].


This is easy to prove.
In the verses i produced previously, relating to how the Hebrews were commanded to treat 'heathens', or strangers [i.e. Godless people] who sojourned among the Hebrews;


The God of Israel is NOT a God who hates 'heathens'  [...i.e. people without knowledge of God].

The God of Israel IS a God who hates WICKEDNESS in mankind,
...no matter who they are, Hebrew, OR, 'heathen'.



+++

Read it in the OT books of Moses, there was NO sanction [penalty], specifically, against being a non-Hebrew, a 'heathen', or a person without knowledge of God.

e.g.
The Hebrew Torah law [the covenant the Hebrews had with God] is very clear about how Hebrews must treat strangers ['unbelievers', i.e. 'heathens'] living among the Hebrews;

Deuteronomy 10:17-19
For the LORD your God... loveth the stranger, ...Love ye therefore the stranger: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:33
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34  But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself...

All these texts from the books of Moses refer to the treatment of STRANGERS [i.e. 'unbelievers' ];
Exodus 12:49
Exodus 22:21
Exodus 23:9
Deuteronomy 1:16
Deuteronomy 24:17, 18

and,
Deuteronomy 27:19
Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger...


+++



God chose the Hebrews, and gave them his laws, so that God's laws would/could guide them into all righteousness.

That they, the children of Israel, would be a light unto other men.

Moses;

Deuteronomy 4:5
Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it.
6  Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.
7  For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for?
8  And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?



But, the Hebrews were mere men, and they corrupted themselves, as God knew that they would.

Deuteronomy 9:4
Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.
5  Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
6  Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

Btw forgot this little pearler.

Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations (goyim) which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree: And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place. (Deuteronomy 12:2-3)

When the good Bible-following believer takes over the lands of the goy, then he should destroy their places of worship. Kind of sheds some light on why there's churches in the Muslim world which are thousands of years old, yet not a single Mosque in the Christian world over 100-200 years old (except those converted into churches).

Now compare this to the way Muhammad (pbuh) dealt with followers of other religions, and their sacred places.

---

In 628 AD, a delegation from St. Catherine's Monastery came to Prophet Muhammad and requested his protection. He responded by granting them a charter of rights. St. Catherine's Monastery is located at the foot of Mt. Sinai and is the world's oldest monastery. It possess a huge collection of Christian manuscripts, second only to the Vatican, and is a world heritage site. It also boasts the oldest collection of Christian icons. It is a treasure house of Christian history that has remained safe for 1,400 years under Muslim protection.

The Letter Reads:

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

Quote:


Aya Sofia? It's not a mosque. It's a museum, dedicated to Kemalist secularism.

Mattyfisk wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 4:50pm:



Nice try.

Karnal,

The Jewish people today, are the only identifiable remnant of the people who entered into a covenant with God, the God of Israel.

Do you identify YOURSELF, with the people who made a covenant with God, to cleanse his land [and, a very specific area of land] by killing the wicked inhabitants ????

"...And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do...."
Exodus 19:5-8


Today, we [Christians, unlike Jews] have no sanction from God to kill the wicked.
But nations of men do as they please [i.e. men do what pleases them, irrespective of the morality of their actions].
And i am guilty too, myself, of often doing what pleases me.

God's requirement was ALWAYS for good people [people who obeyed God's moral laws] to separate themselves from wicked people [those people who wantonly broke God's moral laws].

But, where wicked people tried to impose themselves upon the Hebrews, and to take hold of, and to possess, what was holy, i.e. God's 'holy land', the Hebrews were sanctioned by God, to kill those wicked persons.




+++

The primary sanction given to the Hebrew people who entered into a covenant with God, was
1/ to seek to be be holy [as God required of them], AND,
2/ it was their 'function' and purpose, to prevent the wicked from taking hold of, and possess, what was holy [to God].

The violence that we read about, in the OT Bible, was justified by God, against those who, being [spiritually] unclean [i.e. morally wicked], sought to take hold of, and to possess, what was holy [to God].
i.e.
God's holy land, was given ['promised'] to a holy people, or at least, given to a people who were covenanted to maintain their holiness [their sanctified condition] before their [holy] God.

Hence the need for God's chosen people, to destroy the unholy [wicked] nations and people, who were in possession of God's 'holy land'.

Those who regard themselves as God's people were to ALWAYS, to seek to separate themselves from wicked men.

And those who refer to themselves as Christians today should ALSO, seek to separate themselves from wicked people.



Leviticus 20:24
...I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Leviticus 20:26
And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.


+++

And 'to separate themselves', is still a requirement, of God's people,

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17  Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
18  And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.



+++
A Holy people.
The Holy land.
A Holy spirit [God's spirit].
...on a spiritual level these concepts are all connected with each other.

And those things speak not [only] of the past, but of what is coming.

And we have no excuse [of our ignorance] to protect us today.

Leviticus 4:27
And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28  Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29  And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.



Today, we have no excuse [for our continued spiritual wickedness].
We have spat in the face of God.
We have counted as nothing his offered mercy, and his offered sacrifice [for sin], given for us.


Numbers 15:30
But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
31  Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.


A Holy people.
The Holy land.
A Holy spirit [God's spirit].