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a carbon tax is better than cap and trade (Read 44617 times)
BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #30 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 8:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.

Ah, true: this exact point will make for very interesting reading in the history books where the issue of the day was getting started!!

PAUSE BUTTON POLITICS WRIT LARGE!!  Grin
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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freediver
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #31 - Jan 4th, 2012 at 10:33pm
 
pause button politics?
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #32 - Jan 30th, 2012 at 9:15pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 10:33pm:
pause button politics?

Um, ...

...

...
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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freediver
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #33 - Jan 30th, 2012 at 9:48pm
 
So, a Dorothy Dixer?

That looks like a cross between Obama and Rudd.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #34 - Feb 8th, 2012 at 7:59pm
 
oH GEEZ, HOW ABOUT GENERAL OBFUSCATION!!
yA KNOW, THE OL' PRETEND YOU CAN'T INTERPRET THE PROBLEM
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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Soren
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #35 - Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows  your touching underlying belief that a government, any government,  knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.



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No one has the right not to be offended.
 
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #36 - Feb 9th, 2012 at 4:53pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows  your touching underlying belief that a government, any government,  knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.




IT'S ALL REGULATION IN THE END!!
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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freediver
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #37 - Feb 11th, 2012 at 3:25pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows  your touching underlying belief that a government, any government,  knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.





It is not an inevitable byproduct of life.

I am against the creation of a futures market.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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Frantic
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #38 - Nov 1st, 2012 at 12:23pm
 
This is a near dead thread that needs an injection.
The carbon tax/scheme is a stupid idea that will only promote and increase the relocation of heavy industry to the third world like it has already done in the e.u.
If the govt. was serious about reducing carbon emissions they would have built 3-5 nuke plants for a massive short term reduction followed by a long term plan of 90-100%renewables using equipment built here.
Instead we halve production of steel at BSL and cause global emissions to increase by almost 400,000 tons of CO2 Shocked and sack 2500 workers. Great plan
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freediver
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #39 - Nov 4th, 2012 at 2:38pm
 
Our targets for GHG emissions reductions are linked to those of the major foreign emitters.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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Frantic
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #40 - Nov 5th, 2012 at 9:31am
 
So does that mean we can increase our emissions like the E.U,USA, china, the u.k and india?
Or do we just follow their "published" figures which do not include imports of both goods, power and gas?
Goods imported into the E.U/U.k have gone up by 250-300% over their carbon tax scheme.Which means actuall carbon CONSUMPTION has increase in the U.K by around 25%, not the decrease they publish!
Power and gas is imported from russia to numerous euro countries with places like finland the most obvious measuring device. Before GFC they where importing 25% of their power, after during the recession that droped to single figures but is starting to ramp up again. None of this is counted against their emissions Shocked
Meanwhile we have brownwashed people still saying the carbon tax/scheme is the best thing ever, blinkering out the rest of the world.
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freediver
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #41 - Nov 5th, 2012 at 12:42pm
 
The Carbon tax is the mechanism to achieve reductions. It is pretty much a separate issue from how much to reduce emissions or which emissions are counted.

I would be interested to know where you got your info from on Finland. Normally emissions are counted where the fuels are burnt.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man - George Bernard Shaw
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Frantic
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #42 - Nov 5th, 2012 at 4:04pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 5th, 2012 at 12:42pm:
The Carbon tax is the mechanism to achieve reductions. It is pretty much a separate issue from how much to reduce emissions or which emissions are counted.

I would be interested to know where you got your info from on Finland. Normally emissions are counted where the fuels are burnt.

Stats Finland look up Finland carbon consumption ( won't let me post link)  Angry
13% in 2010 and about 15% in 09
Go do a search on uk carbon consumption here's a start:
.theecologist.org/
All a tax has done is provide more incentive to move high emission industry out so you now have uk/eu industry stagnating while their big manufacturers build in china or get free credits like their steel makers.
The next report from DEFRA ,the uk govt org that is not only watching emissions but consumtion is due dec 13 should be interesting Wink According to the uk govt to 05 , 15years into the carbon scheme consumption had caused an increase of 35% in uk caused emissions of co2. Because of the GFC this had dropped to 20% over 1990 levels in 08-09.
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« Last Edit: Nov 5th, 2012 at 4:14pm by Frantic »  
 
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damien
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #43 - Jan 13th, 2013 at 4:55pm
 
Yeh, isn't it a bummer when you cannot post a link. That means that you cannot provide backup or evidence of anything that you are posting or replying to. Have to wait until you hit 100 posts. Never heard of this anywhere else.
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The Coalition won!! Now get over it!!
 
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BatteriesNotIncluded
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Re: a carbon tax is better than cap and trade
Reply #44 - Jan 25th, 2013 at 2:17pm
 
Soren wrote on Feb 8th, 2012 at 8:14pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 4th, 2012 at 9:26am:
In the long run, it is community reaction, politics and government policy that will set the price. The mechanism only makes a difference over the short term - between a stable and a fluctuating price.

Under a tax, the government would gradually increase the price to meet whatever targets we have, and also adjust those targets based on the difficulty in achieving them (ie the price). Similarly for a trading scheme they would adjust how quickly the total emissions permitted is brought down, based on price and emissions reduction targets.



This shows  your touching underlying belief that a government, any government,  knows how to participate, devise, control and regulate a speculative futures market in an invisible, odourless gas that occurs naturally as the inevitable byproduct of life.




Releasing the emissions of long buried fossil fuels on an industrial scale is not the inevitable byproduct of life!


  Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked
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*Sure....they're anti competitive as any subsidised job is.  It wouldn't be there without the tax payer.  Very damned difficult for a brainwashed collectivist to understand that I know....  (swaggy) *
 
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