Australian Politics Forum - Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN

longweekend58

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Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Nov 29^th, 2010 at 9:27am

VDSL2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_speed_digital_subscriber_line_2)

Fibre to the node and VDSL2 connections to the residence. can get 250Mbs and could be put in place NOW for 1/4 the cost of the NBN.

so why are we paying so much when there are cheaper and BETTER alternatives around?

also read... http://www.adam.com.au/announcements/2010/11/0515/index.html

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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codswal

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #1 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 9:33am

it may as well be in Chinese for me longy... but the point you make ..

it is the Labor Way..they believe the hard way is the best way..

look at the Education Revolution.....what did we get.. a ballsup..

a building fiasco.. and a curriculum that no one agrees on

Health revolution... nothing.other than a big spend up.and nurses on strike, good one!!

and its taken 3 years..

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Equitist

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #2 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 9:58am

longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 9:27am:

VDSL2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_speed_digital_subscriber_line_2)

Fibre to the node and VDSL2 connections to the residence. can get 250Mbs and could be put in place NOW for 1/4 the cost of the NBN.

so why are we paying so much when there are cheaper and BETTER alternatives around?

also read... http://www.adam.com.au/announcements/2010/11/0515/index.html

Hmmnnn...what proportion of Aussie residents are within 0.5 km of a node - or within 1.6 km for that matter!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_speed_digital_subscriber_line_2

Quote:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very-high-speed digital subscriber line 2 (VDSL2) is an access technology that exploits the existing infrastructure of copper wires that were originally deployed for POTS. It can be deployed from central offices, from fibre-fed cabinets located near the customer premises, or within buildings.

VDSL2 is the newest and most advanced standard of DSL broadband wireline communications. Designed to support the wide deployment of triple play services such as voice, video, data, high definition television (HDTV) and interactive gaming, VDSL2 is purported to enable operators and carriers to gradually, flexibly, and cost-efficiently upgrade existing xDSL infrastructure.

The protocol was standardized as ITU G.993.2 on February 17, 2006.

ITU-T G.993.2 (VDSL2) is an enhancement to G.993.1 (VDSL) that permits the transmission of asymmetric and symmetric aggregate data rates up to 200 Mbit/s downstream and upstream on twisted pairs using a bandwidth up to 30 MHz.

VDSL2 deteriorates quickly from a theoretical maximum of 250 Mbit/s at source to 100 Mbit/s at 0.5 km (1,600 ft) and 50 Mbit/s at 1 km (3,300 ft), but degrades at a much slower rate from there, and still outperforms VDSL. Starting from 1.6 km (1 mi) its performance is equal to ADSL2+.

ADSL-like long reach performance is one of the key advantages of VDSL2. LR-VDSL2 enabled systems are capable of supporting speeds of around 1–4 Mbit/s (downstream) over distances of 4–5 km (2.5–3 miles), gradually increasing the bit rate up to symmetric 100 Mbit/s as loop-length shortens. This means that VDSL2-based systems, unlike VDSL1 systems, are not limited to short local loops or MTU/MDUs only, but can also be used for medium range applications.

Seriously, Longy, your background is in IT - so I don't get why you seem so determined to back the concept of the nation upgrading to technology that has already been superseded...

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Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN Reply #3 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:16am So presumably it would run at 250 MB if the there was fibre between the node and the home, instead of copper.
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longweekend58

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #4 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:17am

Equitist wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 9:58am:

longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 9:27am:

VDSL2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_speed_digital_subscriber_line_2)

Fibre to the node and VDSL2 connections to the residence. can get 250Mbs and could be put in place NOW for 1/4 the cost of the NBN.

so why are we paying so much when there are cheaper and BETTER alternatives around?

also read... http://www.adam.com.au/announcements/2010/11/0515/index.html

Hmmnnn...what proportion of Aussie residents are within 0.5 km of a node - or within 1.6 km for that matter!?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_high_speed_digital_subscriber_line_2

Quote:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very-high-speed digital subscriber line 2 (VDSL2) is an access technology that exploits the existing infrastructure of copper wires that were originally deployed for POTS. It can be deployed from central offices, from fibre-fed cabinets located near the customer premises, or within buildings.

VDSL2 is the newest and most advanced standard of DSL broadband wireline communications. Designed to support the wide deployment of triple play services such as voice, video, data, high definition television (HDTV) and interactive gaming, VDSL2 is purported to enable operators and carriers to gradually, flexibly, and cost-efficiently upgrade existing xDSL infrastructure.

The protocol was standardized as ITU G.993.2 on February 17, 2006.

ITU-T G.993.2 (VDSL2) is an enhancement to G.993.1 (VDSL) that permits the transmission of asymmetric and symmetric aggregate data rates up to 200 Mbit/s downstream and upstream on twisted pairs using a bandwidth up to 30 MHz.

VDSL2 deteriorates quickly from a theoretical maximum of 250 Mbit/s at source to 100 Mbit/s at 0.5 km (1,600 ft) and 50 Mbit/s at 1 km (3,300 ft), but degrades at a much slower rate from there, and still outperforms VDSL. Starting from 1.6 km (1 mi) its performance is equal to ADSL2+.

ADSL-like long reach performance is one of the key advantages of VDSL2. LR-VDSL2 enabled systems are capable of supporting speeds of around 1–4 Mbit/s (downstream) over distances of 4–5 km (2.5–3 miles), gradually increasing the bit rate up to symmetric 100 Mbit/s as loop-length shortens. This means that VDSL2-based systems, unlike VDSL1 systems, are not limited to short local loops or MTU/MDUs only, but can also be used for medium range applications.

Seriously, Longy, your background is in IT - so I don't get why you seem so determined to back the concept of the nation upgrading to technology that has already been superseded...

The VAST MAJORITY of the population would be able to be within acceptabel range of VDSL2 and thats the point. Spend the money where it is actually needed. for the najority of australians, NBN will give them 12Mbs and a fixed line phone - something we already have.

And if you have been in IT for as long as I have (30 years) you have seen that the latest technology is not always the best and is often over priced underperforming and over-hyped. Fibre to the node with VDSL2 to the home would give us all 100Mbs AND MORE at 1/4 of the cost.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #5 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:19am

Please delete wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:16am:

So presumably it would run at 250 MB if the there was fibre between the node and the home, instead of copper.

yes thats tru and it only changes the price from $9B to $40B. and as i ahve been saying time and time again. its not about the technology but about the PRICE. Do you all go out and go into massive debt to buy a lamborghini instead of a holden because it is a superior vehicle? NO. you figure it costs too much and when most of the time you are carrying kids or shopping it isnt any advantage at all. The same argument applies to the NBN.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Please delete

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #6 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:28am

Nothing inherently wrong with what you are saying longweekend.

One IT truism is that it is never the right time to buy - always something better around the corner.

I imagine they could adapt the plan, and use new technologies like this - in fact they'd be crazy if they didn't.

I am pleased that one of the benefits of the NBN is that the provisioning side of comms in Australia will be wrested off Telstra. They also seem pleased.

That's how it should have been done when Beazley first introduced OPTUS.

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Equitist

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #7 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:32am

longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:19am:

Please delete wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:16am:

So presumably it would run at 250 MB if the there was fibre between the node and the home, instead of copper.

yes thats tru and it only changes the price from $9B to $40B. and as i ahve been saying time and time again. its not about the technology but about the PRICE. Do you all go out and go into massive debt to buy a lamborghini instead of a holden because it is a superior vehicle? NO. you figure it costs too much and when most of the time you are carrying kids or shopping it isnt any advantage at all. The same argument applies to the NBN.

LOL...I seem to recall you bragging about your own wankmobile - and the fact that you had to modify your home driveway to accommodate the symbol of your mid-life crisis...

It seems that you don't practice what you preach...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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Equitist

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #8 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:38am

longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:17am:

The VAST MAJORITY of the population would be able to be within acceptabel range of VDSL2 and thats the point. Spend the money where it is actually needed. for the najority of australians, NBN will give them 12Mbs and a fixed line phone - something we already have.

And if you have been in IT for as long as I have (30 years) you have seen that the latest technology is not always the best and is often over priced underperforming and over-hyped. Fibre to the node with VDSL2 to the home would give us all 100Mbs AND MORE at 1/4 of the cost.

How many more nodes would be required, over and above the number than we have today, to achieve 100Mbs for us all?

Either way, dare I suggest that 8 years is a very long time in technological terms - and that: based on past trends, the VDSDL to the home would most likely become inadequate within the 8 year window and therefore that it would be foolish to limit the national roll-out to VDSDL to the home!?

BTW, I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be a staged roll-out - but that double-handling/installation is unnecessarily costly and counter-productive...

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mozzaok

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #9 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:42am

Have you used vdsl2 longy?
I have, and it was giving me about 20 to 30 Mbps, same as my ADSL2+, and same as my Cable.
Now the fact is that they still need to run Fibre to the node, and then Cat 5E to your house, and through your house, so where is the cost saving going to come?
Is it cheaper, or dearer to run Cat 5E than optical fibre?

To have a decent VDSL2 network you would need to run fibre to every street corner anyway, as it drops in speed dramatically if copper is longer than 1km, and that has to be GOOD copper, ie; NEW copper, so why the hell would you bother putting new copper in, instead of just doing it right now, and installing the far more durable, more reliable, Optical Fibre all the way?

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Equitist

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #10 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:50am

mozzaok wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:42am:

Have you used vdsl2 longy?
I have, and it was giving me about 20 to 30 Mbps, same as my ADSL2+, and same as my Cable.
Now the fact is that they still need to run Fibre to the node, and then Cat 5E to your house, and through your house, so where is the cost saving going to come?
Is it cheaper, or dearer to run Cat 5E than optical fibre?

To have a decent VDSL2 network you would need to run fibre to every street corner anyway, as it drops in speed dramatically if copper is longer than 1km, and that has to be GOOD copper, ie; NEW copper, so why the hell would you bother putting new copper in, instead of just doing it right now, and installing the far more durable, more reliable, Optical Fibre all the way?

Good questions - my guess is that labour costs are a significant component of what is necessarily a labour-intensive project...

In the two scenarios under discussion here, what proportions of the overall costs does the hardware represent - and has there been too much emphasis placed upon the materials costs v's the labour costs in order to misrepresent the overall comparative costs!?

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Equitist

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #11 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:59am

Quote:

ADSL-like long reach performance is one of the key advantages of VDSL2. LR-VDSL2 enabled systems are capable of supporting speeds of around 1–4 Mbit/s (downstream) over distances of 4–5 km (2.5–3 miles), gradually increasing the bit rate up to symmetric 100 Mbit/s as loop-length shortens. This means that VDSL2-based systems, unlike VDSL1 systems, are not limited to short local loops or MTU/MDUs only, but can also be used for medium range applications.

So, at distances of 4–5 km the speed of LR-VDSL2 is a mere 1–4 Mbit/s!

So, again I ask: how many more nodes would be required in Oz, to get to that magic figure of 100 Mbit/s for us all!?

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longweekend58

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #12 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 11:33am

Equitist wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:32am:

longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:19am:

Please delete wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:16am:

So presumably it would run at 250 MB if the there was fibre between the node and the home, instead of copper.

yes thats tru and it only changes the price from $9B to $40B. and as i ahve been saying time and time again. its not about the technology but about the PRICE. Do you all go out and go into massive debt to buy a lamborghini instead of a holden because it is a superior vehicle? NO. you figure it costs too much and when most of the time you are carrying kids or shopping it isnt any advantage at all. The same argument applies to the NBN.

LOL...I seem to recall you bragging about your own wankmobile - and the fact that you had to modify your home driveway to accommodate the symbol of your mid-life crisis...

It seems that you don't practice what you preach...

IM not asking the taxpayer or anyone else besides me to pay for it.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mozzaok

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #13 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 11:33am

So the simple question obviously is WHY would it be cheaper?
Secondly, HOW would it be better?
The second I already know, it absolutely would not be better, it is clearly inferior to FTTH, and asserting otherwise is as close to a blatant lie one could give, if one were truly as tech savvy as longy claims to be, but the cheaper bit I am interested in hearing, because I want to know what assumptions are being made, because obviously they are making the claim comparing apples to avocados.

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longweekend58

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Re: Cheaper and better alternative to the NBN
Reply #14 - Nov 29^th, 2010 at 11:35am

Equitist wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:38am:

longweekend58 wrote on Nov 29^th, 2010 at 10:17am:

The VAST MAJORITY of the population would be able to be within acceptabel range of VDSL2 and thats the point. Spend the money where it is actually needed. for the najority of australians, NBN will give them 12Mbs and a fixed line phone - something we already have.

And if you have been in IT for as long as I have (30 years) you have seen that the latest technology is not always the best and is often over priced underperforming and over-hyped. Fibre to the node with VDSL2 to the home would give us all 100Mbs AND MORE at 1/4 of the cost.

How many more nodes would be required, over and above the number than we have today, to achieve 100Mbs for us all?

Either way, dare I suggest that 8 years is a very long time in technological terms - and that: based on past trends, the VDSDL to the home would most likely become inadequate within the 8 year window and therefore that it would be foolish to limit the national roll-out to VDSDL to the home!?

BTW, I'm not suggesting that there shouldn't be a staged roll-out - but that double-handling/installation is unnecessarily costly and counter-productive...

Your technical credibility is crap. After all, you thought wireless operated at the speed of sound. So excuse me for saying that your opinion on technical matters is totally worthless.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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