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innocence and collective punishment in Islam (Read 10636 times)
freediver
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #30 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 6:47pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6th, 2010 at 4:06pm:
I didn't tell you to figure it out for yourself. I asked if you'd thought of actually reading the Quran to find the answers you're looking for. I know if I wanted to learn about Christianity I'd read the Bible.

You're curious about Islamic law - go straight to the source and make up your own mind then discuss. †At least you will then be able to do so with some authority.

My husband and I can read the same verse in the Quran and come up with completely different interpretations because we're coming from different perspectives. There are scholars that support his view and scholars that support mine.



All well and good, except that Islam has been turned into real Sharia law that is not open to dispute, if you want to avoid a stoning.

Some passages from the Koran were posted recently that proved to me that Muhammed supported full on wife beating - nasty green bruises and all - ao long as the woman 'deserved' it of course. You may disagree. That's when I go to a Muslim and ask them.

I have no itnerest in telling Muslims what the 'real' Islam is. My interest is in what Muslims believe. As far as I can tell, that does not include you.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #31 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 8:47am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6th, 2010 at 5:14pm:
Any book, including the Bible, is 'open' to interpretation, that point in itself doesn't mean a lot.

The analogy you give about driving rules is a little daft.


As a New Age Muslim I must point out that you are wrong. The words in the holy qur'an are the "immutable words from allah" and as such they are not subject to muslim exegetics.

Immutable:Not subject or susceptible to change.

Also, there is no verse in the holy qur'an which allows the faithful to morph into what is colloquially termed 'moderate muslim'. Those frothing-at-the-mouth Imams on youtube who call for stonings, hand chopping, wife beating etc are true muslims who are merely obeying the muslims' psittacism. There is not one paragraph in the holy qur'an that says something like..."in the year 2010 muslims are released from the manly duty of beating their wife or wives." Nor does it say that once a muslim moves to a Western country lapidations are to cease.

Given the priapic nature of Islam who will speak up for distaff Islam?

The answer is Malsi. Malsi grants the right to distaff New Age Muslims to beat the crap out of their husbands. In my case it's a bit brutal because my wife has four husbands (Malsi allows that) and she has become an expert at dispensing punishment to those of her husbands who are reluctant to share her bed. Cry Embarrassed Sad
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #32 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 9:33am
 

Quote:
Given the priapic nature of Islam who will speak up for distaff Islam?


Nice one Karnal  Grin
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1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not†
 
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #33 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 11:02am
 
Quote:
All forms of Islam and interpretations are equally valid? Cool. I guess that means that those Saudi dudes killing those gays are just being good Muslims after all.


Imperium - that's what you came up with after all that thinking? I'm disappointed.

Quote:
Annie, doesn't it worry you, that the holy book that Sharia Law ( and a lot of other stuff ) is based on , is 'open' to interpretation???



Gizmo - Abu answered you well, but I'll add that no, it doesn't worry me at all. Almost everything in our lives is a mirror. We bring our own context to what we read and learn.



Quote:
Some passages from the Koran were posted recently that proved to me that Muhammed supported full on wife beating - nasty green bruises and all - ao long as the woman 'deserved' it of course.


Really? I must have missed that. Can you please provide a link to a Quran passage that mentions bruising and Muhammad's support for "full on wife beating?"


Quote:
I have no itnerest in telling Muslims what the 'real' Islam is. My interest is in what Muslims believe. As far as I can tell, that does not include you.


I was a Muslim for over a decade and I've lived with one for almost two. If you want to write that off that's fine, but at least be honest about your reasons for doing so. My version of Islam doesn't fit with the view you're determined to hold on to. I doubt Abu's does either, which is why you have to twist what he says.

It's understandable that you find it confronting.




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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #34 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 12:35pm
 
Quote:
I doubt Abu's does either, which is why you have to twist what he says.


Quite the opposite actually. My view of Islam is based predominantly on what Abu and Malik have posted here. My view of the religion is significantly better than most of the people I see who try to figure it out for themselves.

Quote:
I was a Muslim for over a decade and I've lived with one for almost two.


Sorry, I didn't realise. I knew you were married to one. Do you mind if I ask why you apostasised?

Would you have been punished with death by stoning if you had apostasised in one of the historical Muslim states?
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #35 - Nov 7th, 2010 at 8:15pm
 
Quote:
Do you mind if I ask why you apostasised?



Did you ever read the story of Baby P in England? Itís a particularly disgusting case in which social workers and doctors failed to pick up the signs of child abuse in a little boy, despite horrific injuries like a broken spine and finger tips that had been bitten off. I was asked to consider it for an op-ed article and after I read about it, I had a big tantrum and cried for hours. When I was finished, I asked myself how any higher power could allow that to happen to a child and eventually realised I couldnít believe in God at all. 

Now Iím not so sure what I believe and Iím in no great hurry to find out.


Quote:
Would you have been punished with death by stoning if you had apostasised in one of the historical Muslim states?


Maybe. I have to say though, I'm surrounded by Muslims (husband, friends, in-laws) and nobody has really treated me any differently.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #36 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 3:22pm
 
Quote:
I tried looking but couldn't find anything on Jewish supporters of death by stoning. I did find this on wikipedia though:


Just a few more links regarding Jewish movements to re-institute a Halachic state system.

Quote:
Brit HaKanaim (Hebrew: בְּרִית הַקַנַאִים‎‎, lit. Covenant of the Zealots)
Among its members were Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu, who later served as the Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel, and Shlomo Lorincz who later served as chairman of the Knesset Finance Committee as a member of Agudat Yisrael...
The ultimate goal of the movement was to impose Jewish religious law in the State of Israel and establish a Halakhic state...
The organisation's members trained using stolen weaponry, and would torch the vehicles of individuals who drove during Shabbat and the shops of butchers that sold non-kosher meat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_HaKanaim

Quote:
Kach (Hebrew: כ"ך‎, "Thus")
the party entered the Knesset in 1984 after several electoral failures...
The party advocated a Jewish state in accordance with the Hebrew Bible...
Today the United States continues to designate the group a terrorist organization [16], and says that it has engaged in terrorist activity by:
    * using explosives or firearms with intent to endanger the safety of individuals or cause substantial damage to property (including an attempt to car bomb a Palestinian girls school in East Jerusalem)
    * threatening and conspiring to carry out assassinations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kach_and_Kahane_Chai

Quote:
Mainstream Israeli Political Parties
United Torah Judaism (UTJ) and Shas in principle aspire to the transformation of Israel into a Halachic state.
UTJ currently holds 5 seats in the Knesset, whilst Shas holds 11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakhic_state

Quote:
The State of Judea (Hebrew: מְדִינַת יְהוּדָה‎‎, Medīnat Yəhuda)
is a proposed halachic state in the West Bank put forward by Israeli Jewish settlers...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Judea

Quote:
Modern attempts to revive the Sanhedrin
The latest effort was in 2004 when a group of seventy one rabbis claiming to represent varied communities in Israel undertook a ceremony in Tiberias, where the original Sanhedrin was disbanded. That group claimed to re-establish the body, based on the proposal of Maimonides and the Jewish legal rulings of Rabbi Yosef Karo. As of March, 2010 that effort is still ongoing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_attempts_to_revive_the_Sanhedrin
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #37 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 9:42pm
 
What is Islam's approach to the concept of innocence? Is it the same as in the modern world, or does it have subtly different meanings in Islam like so many other words?

Were the 9/11 victims 'in a sense' not innocent?

Are there any examples of collective punishment in the Koran that may shed light on this mentality?
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #38 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 9:51pm
 
Quote:
What is Islam's approach to the concept of innocence? Is it the same as in the modern world, or does it have subtly different meanings in Islam like so many other words?


We both know you don't want to know what Islam says on it, you are going to make it up yourself and twist some "subtle obscured hidden meaning" into it.

freediver you may as well go and have the conservation with yourself, that's what usually ends up happening anyway.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #39 - Dec 11th, 2010 at 10:09pm
 
Actually I would like to know what Islam says on it. Hence the question. Thanks in advance Abu.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #40 - May 25th, 2012 at 8:51am
 
Annie:

Quote:
The Taliban were hardly model Muslims either.


Abu and Falah seem to think they are.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6th, 2010 at 4:06pm:
I didn't tell you to figure it out for yourself. I asked if you'd thought of actually reading the Quran to find the answers you're looking for. I know if I wanted to learn about Christianity I'd read the Bible.

You're curious about Islamic law - go straight to the source and make up your own mind then discuss.  At least you will then be able to do so with some authority.

My husband and I can read the same verse in the Quran and come up with completely different interpretations because we're coming from different perspectives. There are scholars that support his view and scholars that support mine.



Annie I am not actually interested in how I might interpret the Koran and I doubt anyone else is either. I am interested in how Muslims interpret it. 'Make up your own mind' would be a perfectly valid approach if Abu and Falah did not advocate killing shites for example because they have the wrong interpretation.

Quote:
Also since Jews are usually not as open as Muslims about their beliefs


LOL Abu. I have never seen anyone as ashamed of their own beliefs as you and Falah.



Falah has let the cat out of the bag:

falah wrote on May 24th, 2012 at 2:06pm:
The first tribe of Jews were expelled from Madina after molesting a Muslim woman and the mob-killing of a Muslim man openly in the jewish market.


falah wrote on May 24th, 2012 at 6:51pm:
Garbage Freeliar. Less than 0.1% of Palestinian population involved in firing a virtually useless homemade rocket is not the same as about 50% of a Jewish tribe being involved in a violent public homicide following a a Jewish sexual assault.


falah wrote on May 24th, 2012 at 6:51pm:
Totally incorrect. The Jewish tribes of Madina were warned many times to honour their treaties and were given many warnings before they were expelled - and most of them were expelled not killed. They were expelled because they kept violating their promises and treaties. They were treated on a case by case basis, but each Jewish tribe in Madina eventually broke their treaties and acted treacherously - some more so than others.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #41 - May 25th, 2012 at 9:49am
 
We are talking about a tribe consisting of about 100 or 200 people. Most of their adult men were involved in a public murder in one of the marketplaces of Madina following a sexual assault committed by a Jew.

By rights, the Muslims could have executed all those Jewish men for their involvement in the murder. Exiling the Jewish murderers, instead of having them executed, was actually very merciful† - in fact a level of mercy unheard of before.

Of course, Freeliar wonders why the women and children of that tribe were also exiled. Perhaps he thinks that they would stay without their men.



The leaders of each Jewish tribe in Madina had signed treaties with the Islamic state, and as such were allowed to stay in the Islamic state with previlidges such as being exempt from paying tax, on the condition that their warriors contribute to the safety of the city of Madina.

The Qunayqa tribe broke this treaty by murdering a Muslim in a mob attack. This meant they had collectivley broken the treaty, and forfeited their right to live in the Islamic state as a tribe.

However, individual Jews were free to petition for permission to live in the Islamic state on an individual basis. Many did and were granted permission to stay, and they were so impressed with the mercy shown by the Muslims that they converted to Islam.

Other Jewish tribes living in Madina were not or exiled or punished for the mob murder.

Other Jews living throughout the Islamic state were not punished for the mob murder.
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« Last Edit: May 25th, 2012 at 10:15am by falah »  

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #42 - May 25th, 2012 at 10:20am
 
freediver wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 8:51am:
LOL Abu. I have never seen anyone as ashamed of their own beliefs as you and Falah.


What garbage. Go and try buying a copy of the Talmud... good luck. Try finding a Jewish website that explains the intricacies of Jewish beliefs and customs, good luck. You can find millions of sites dedicated to promoting Islamic knowledge, you just reject every single one of them because you believe it to be biased.

Honestly don't you feel ashamed peddling this crap? don't you feel like your credibility just keeps shrinking every single time you post these lies and half baked claims?
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #43 - May 25th, 2012 at 12:17pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 10:20am:
freediver wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 8:51am:
LOL Abu. I have never seen anyone as ashamed of their own beliefs as you and Falah.


What garbage. Go and try buying a copy of the Talmud... good luck. Try finding a Jewish website that explains the intricacies of Jewish beliefs and customs, good luck. You can find millions of sites dedicated to promoting Islamic knowledge, you just reject every single one of them because you believe it to be biased.

Honestly don't you feel ashamed peddling this crap? don't you feel like your credibility just keeps shrinking every single time you post these lies and half baked claims?


No Abu. What I find is that it leaves out the interesting bits and gives a very sugar coated version of Islamic law. You are hardly any better. When I try to ask you a straight question I get endless diversions.

For example, you have not even attempted to explain the Islamic concept of innocence and collective punishment. Given the well known cases of Muslim leaders publicly declaring that Muslims should not slaughter innocent people, while privately explaining to their followers that only Muslims are innocent, there is a natural interest in this. They are hardly going to put a little asterisk beside innocent on their website to tell non-Muslims the term does not apply to them.

If you are not prepared to talk about the political aspects of Islam, what is the point of hosting an Islam board on a politics forum?
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« Last Edit: May 25th, 2012 at 12:23pm by freediver »  

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #44 - May 25th, 2012 at 12:19pm
 
freediver wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 12:17pm:
abu_rashid wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 10:20am:
freediver wrote on May 25th, 2012 at 8:51am:
LOL Abu. I have never seen anyone as ashamed of their own beliefs as you and Falah.


What garbage. Go and try buying a copy of the Talmud... good luck. Try finding a Jewish website that explains the intricacies of Jewish beliefs and customs, good luck. You can find millions of sites dedicated to promoting Islamic knowledge, you just reject every single one of them because you believe it to be biased.

Honestly don't you feel ashamed peddling this crap? don't you feel like your credibility just keeps shrinking every single time you post these lies and half baked claims?


No Abu. What I find is that it leaves out the interesting bits and gives a very sugar coated version of Islamic law. You are hardly any better. When I try to ask you a straight question I get endless diversions.

So you know how I feel FD
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