Australian Politics Forum - innocence and collective punishment in Islam

Hlysnan

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #15 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:04pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 2:33pm:

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I tried looking but couldn't find anything on Jewish supporters of death by stoning. I did find this on wikipedia though:

The info is out there, you're just not that interested in looking at it, and the media isn't that interested in showing it to you. Here's a few links regarding Jewish attitudes towards Halacha, especially the more violent aspects:

Religious Affairs: Who's afraid of a halachic state?
Halacha & Shari'ah
Zionist settler arrested for implementing Halacha with his own hands
Another vigilante style Halacha implementation
Killing non-Jews, even kids, is acceptable for a Jew, according to Halacha
The King's Torah
Rabbi Lior: Killing civilians is ok according to Halacha

Also since Jews are usually not as open as Muslims about their beliefs, it's going to be harder for you to come across details of the moves to re-implement Halacha. Much of the "rules of engagement" that the Zionist state adopts are written up by panels of Rabbis and are based on Halacha.

Link one: "A lot of secular Israelis are afraid that if tomorrow Israel becomes a state ruled by Halacha, people will be stoned or burned to death for transgressing sacred laws, or at the very least will be prevented from driving a car, going to a coffee shop, having a barbecue in their backyard or doing anything else that is forbidden on Shabbat. People who think that the courts that rule according to Jewish law will mete out capital punishment do not know anything about Jewish law. Capital punishment is forbidden today.

Link two does not mention stoning but does mention: "Countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, whose legal systems are based on Sharia openly torture and mutilate citizens, persecute homosexuals, sentence apostates to death and restrict all freedom of religion. The extent of Sharia’s influence in supposed moderate countries such as Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Bangladesh, and Pakistan is instructive."

Link three and link four: again no stoning, and they don't even mention Halacha in the articles...

Links five and six: even though he is a Jewish person, he quoted justifications from the Bible. There's also no mention of stoning at all.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #16 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:20pm

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"Countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, whose legal systems are based on Sharia openly torture and mutilate citizens, persecute homosexuals, sentence apostates to death and restrict all freedom of religion. "

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy - an oxymoron. Their basic system of governance is forbidden in Islam. Why would you use them as an example?

The Taliban were hardly model Muslims either.

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abu_rashid

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #17 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:21pm

Quote:

Link one: "A lot of secular Israelis...

The links all show inclinations of Jews towards returning to the Halachic system whereby Rabbis establish the laws based on the Torah and Talmud.

Quote:

Link two does not mention stoning but does mention: "Countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, whose legal systems are based on Sharia openly torture and mutilate citizens

Islam strictly prohibits torture. Israel is the only country in the world where up until recently torture was legal. In fact Israel has one of the highest rates of citizen support for torture at 43%, when this is broken down by religion, the majority of Jewish Israelis support torture, whilst the majority of Muslim/Christian Israelis oppose it. I think you'd find most Muslim countries have some of the lowest rates too. Usually Muslim activists are the victims of the torture in the Muslim countries you mentioned, which is then ironically misused by people like yourself to try and claim Islam promotes torture. What a joke.
(Source: BBC)

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JC Denton

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #18 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:22pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:20pm:

Quote:

"Countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, whose legal systems are based on Sharia openly torture and mutilate citizens, persecute homosexuals, sentence apostates to death and restrict all freedom of religion. "

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy - an oxymoron. Their basic system of governance is forbidden in Islam. Why would you use them as an example?

The Taliban were hardly model Muslims either.

Annie, it really sounds to me like Islam sure seems to make a lot of things that modern liberals find abhorrent "forbidden". I'm not accusing anybody here of being a liar but nothing you say about Islam seems to add up in my head.

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam Reply #19 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:23pm I think what people here can't seem to comprehend is that just because a Muslim does something, doesn't make it Islamic. It's pretty basic.
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Annie Anthrax

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #20 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:24pm

Quote:

Annie, it really sounds to me like Islam sure seems to make a lot of things that modern liberals find abhorrent "forbidden". I'm not accusing anybody here of being a liar but nothing you say about Islam seems to add up in my head.

Tell me what's not making sense and I'll explain it to you.

Slowly.

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freediver

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #21 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:50pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:20pm:

Quote:

"Countries like Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Afghanistan under the Taliban, whose legal systems are based on Sharia openly torture and mutilate citizens, persecute homosexuals, sentence apostates to death and restrict all freedom of religion. "

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy - an oxymoron. Their basic system of governance is forbidden in Islam. Why would you use them as an example?

The Taliban were hardly model Muslims either.

You are right. Perhaps we should ask a Muslim what Sharia law actually says, rather than looking for examples of it in practice. I am sure they would be 'open and frank' about it, right?

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freediver

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #22 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:55pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:24pm:

Quote:

Annie, it really sounds to me like Islam sure seems to make a lot of things that modern liberals find abhorrent "forbidden". I'm not accusing anybody here of being a liar but nothing you say about Islam seems to add up in my head.

Tell me what's not making sense and I'll explain it to you.

Slowly.

Here you go:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1288959318/7#7

Last time I tried asking you told me to figure it out for myself. I am sure if I actually did that I would get equally criticised for not understanding it properly.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #23 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 4:06pm

I didn't tell you to figure it out for yourself. I asked if you'd thought of actually reading the Quran to find the answers you're looking for. I know if I wanted to learn about Christianity I'd read the Bible.

You're curious about Islamic law - go straight to the source and make up your own mind then discuss. At least you will then be able to do so with some authority.

My husband and I can read the same verse in the Quran and come up with completely different interpretations because we're coming from different perspectives. There are scholars that support his view and scholars that support mine.

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« Last Edit: Nov 6^th, 2010 at 4:16pm by Annie Anthrax »

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gizmo_2655

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #24 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 4:40pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 4:06pm:

I didn't tell you to figure it out for yourself. I asked if you'd thought of actually reading the Quran to find the answers you're looking for. I know if I wanted to learn about Christianity I'd read the Bible.

You're curious about Islamic law - go straight to the source and make up your own mind then discuss. At least you will then be able to do so with some authority.

My husband and I can read the same verse in the Quran and come up with completely different interpretations because we're coming from different perspectives. There are scholars that support his view and scholars that support mine.

Annie, doesn't it worry you, that the holy book that Sharia Law ( and a lot of other stuff ) is based on , is 'open' to interpretation???

Surely laws should be based on as narrow an interpretation as possible...just to avoid confusion??

After all what would happen on the roads (for example) if speed limits, BCA and Right of Way laws were based upon each driver's 'opinion'????

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JC Denton Gold Member Offline Posts: 5191 Gender:	Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam Reply #25 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 5:08pm All forms of Islam and interpretations are equally valid? Cool. I guess that means that those Saudi dudes killing those gays are just being good Muslims after all.
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abu_rashid

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #26 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 5:14pm

Quote:

Annie, doesn't it worry you, that the holy book that Sharia Law ( and a lot of other stuff ) is based on , is 'open' to interpretation???

Any book, including the Bible, is 'open' to interpretation, that point in itself doesn't mean a lot.

The analogy you give about driving rules is a little daft.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #27 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 5:18pm

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 5:14pm:

Quote:

Annie, doesn't it worry you, that the holy book that Sharia Law ( and a lot of other stuff ) is based on , is 'open' to interpretation???

Any book, including the Bible, is 'open' to interpretation, that point in itself doesn't mean a lot.

The analogy you give about driving rules is a little daft.

Only to you Abu...

And we don't use the Bible to make laws anymore do we???

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Hlysnan

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #28 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 5:44pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:20pm:

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy - an oxymoron. Their basic system of governance is forbidden in Islam. Why would you use them as an example?

The Taliban were hardly model Muslims either.

Merely quoting from links provided.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:21pm:

The links all show inclinations of Jews towards returning to the Halachic system whereby Rabbis establish the laws based on the Torah and Talmud.

Abu, you made the claim that there are Jews who want to see the return of death by stoning as a penalty. I couldn't find anything so you provided me with links to read. None of which follow that claim.

Quote:

Islam strictly prohibits torture. Israel is the only country in the world where up until recently torture was legal. In fact Israel has one of the highest rates of citizen support for torture at 43%, when this is broken down by religion, the majority of Jewish Israelis support torture, whilst the majority of Muslim/Christian Israelis oppose it. I think you'd find most Muslim countries have some of the lowest rates too. Usually Muslim activists are the victims of the torture in the Muslim countries you mentioned, which is then ironically misused by people like yourself to try and claim Islam promotes torture. What a joke.
(Source: BBC)

How am I supposed to know that Muslim activists are the victims of the torture mentioned? It didn't say this in the articles, and you're claiming that I'm misusing information.

As for Islam and torture:
Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

Now, considering I am not a Muslim nor an Islamic scholar, perhaps I have been misinformed about the meaning of this particular passage. Care to explain this?

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gizmo_2655

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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #29 - Nov 6^th, 2010 at 5:48pm

Hlysnan wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 5:44pm:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:20pm:

Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy - an oxymoron. Their basic system of governance is forbidden in Islam. Why would you use them as an example?

The Taliban were hardly model Muslims either.

Merely quoting from links provided.

abu_rashid wrote on Nov 6^th, 2010 at 3:21pm:

The links all show inclinations of Jews towards returning to the Halachic system whereby Rabbis establish the laws based on the Torah and Talmud.

Abu, you made the claim that there are Jews who want to see the return of death by stoning as a penalty. I couldn't find anything so you provided me with links to read. None of which follow that claim.

Quote:

Islam strictly prohibits torture. Israel is the only country in the world where up until recently torture was legal. In fact Israel has one of the highest rates of citizen support for torture at 43%, when this is broken down by religion, the majority of Jewish Israelis support torture, whilst the majority of Muslim/Christian Israelis oppose it. I think you'd find most Muslim countries have some of the lowest rates too. Usually Muslim activists are the victims of the torture in the Muslim countries you mentioned, which is then ironically misused by people like yourself to try and claim Islam promotes torture. What a joke.
(Source: BBC)

How am I supposed to know that Muslim activists are the victims of the torture mentioned? It didn't say this in the articles, and you're claiming that I'm misusing information.

As for Islam and torture:
Qur'an (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

Now, considering I am not a Muslim nor an Islamic scholar, perhaps I have been misinformed about the meaning of this particular passage. Care to explain this?

It might be 'open to interpretation'...... Grin

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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