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innocence and collective punishment in Islam (Read 17813 times)
freediver
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innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Nov 5th, 2010 at 10:15pm
 
There have been a few cases of prominent Muslim leaders condemning the killing of innocent people for the benefit of western media, only to turn around and tell fellow Muslims that non-Mulims are never innocent.

On this board, from Annie, in reference to 9/11 etc:

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 12:30pm:
A Muslim has to be respectful. Killing innocents and suicide bombings are both forbidden –if Muslims followed this we wouldn’t have had 9/11 or Bali and Israel wouldn’t have an excuse to bomb the sh!t out of the Palestinian children.


Followed by Abu with:

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 7th, 2010 at 6:54pm:
Well this is a slightly different issue. As far as the American state deserving some of it's own medicine, nothing is more deserving than a taste of one's own medicine.

As for the individual civilians being the target of it, not really. But as voters in a democracy, they are in a sense responsible for the foreign policy of their governments which has led to the death and suffering of millions worldwide. 


I realise that Annie may not be that familiar with Islamic law (in the same post she also said that rape is forbidden in Islam). However, Abu's posts made me wonder what Islam's approach to the concept of innocence is. Is it the same as in the modern world, or does it have subtly different meanings in Islam like so many other words?

It does sound like a very convenient way of waging war on modern democracy, by using it to avoid troublesome concepts like innocence.

Were the 9/11 victims 'in a sense' not innocent?

Are there any examples of collective punishment in the Koran that may shed light on this mentality?
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #1 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 9:38am
 
Rape is forbidden in Islam. Do some research.

Quote:
There have been a few cases of prominent Muslim leaders condemning the killing of innocent people for the benefit of western media, only to turn around and tell fellow Muslims that non-Mulims are never innocent.



Where?
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #2 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 10:08am
 
I have done my research.

I forget whether it was Abu or Malik who explained it, but there are several cases where rape is permitted (or if you want to speak Islamic, they are defined out of existence, or made unprosecutable).

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #3 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 11:02am
 
You haven't linked to any 'evidence' about rape being permitted in Islam in your Wiki.

Taking the word of one Muslim (whether it was Abu or Malik) is hardly doing your own research, is it?

Did you know that the Hebrew Bible orders death by stoning for a victim of rape if it was within city limits? She's let off if it was in a field though. Why aren't you up in arms about that?
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #4 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 1:09pm
 
Annie Anthrax wrote on Nov 6th, 2010 at 11:02am:
You haven't linked to any 'evidence' about rape being permitted in Islam in your Wiki.

Taking the word of one Muslim (whether it was Abu or Malik) is hardly doing your own research, is it?

Did you know that the Hebrew Bible orders death by stoning for a victim of rape if it was within city limits? She's let off if it was in a field though. Why aren't you up in arms about that?


Why is it that noone advocates this rule then? Why are there muslims who support death by stoning? Why is there this difference between Judaism and Islam?
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #5 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 1:22pm
 
fd,

Quote:
I have done my research.

I forget whether it was Abu or Malik who explained it, but there are several cases where rape is permitted (or if you want to speak Islamic, they are defined out of existence, or made unprosecutable).


You're one of the most poorly researched detractors of Islam I've ever come across. Even Soren puts you to shame and that's saying something.

I've stated quite clearly for you numerous times that Islam forbids rape and punishes for it more severely than any Western country, yet you still come back with this garbage.

Liifræd,

Quote:
Why is it that noone advocates this rule then?


There are plenty of Jews calling for the re-institution of Halacha (Judaic Biblical law, including stoning), but unlike with Muslims, the media isn't interested in sensationalising them.

And obviously the "well researched" detractors of Islam that we see here are completely ignorant of such things.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #6 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 1:36pm
 
I tried looking but couldn't find anything on Jewish supporters of death by stoning. I did find this on wikipedia though:

Quote:
The official teachings of Judaism approve the death penalty in principle but the standard of proof required for application of death penalty is extremely stringent, and in practice, it has been abolished by various Talmudic decisions, making the situations in which a death sentence could be passed effectively impossible and hypothetical. "Forty years before the destruction" of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE, i.e. in 30 CE, the Sanhedrin effectively abolished capital punishment, making it a hypothetical upper limit on the severity of punishment, fitting in finality for God alone to use, not fallible humans.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #7 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 1:38pm
 
What is Islam's approach to the concept of innocence? Is it the same as in the modern world, or does it have subtly different meanings in Islam like so many other words?

Were the 9/11 victims 'in a sense' not innocent?

Are there any examples of collective punishment in the Koran that may shed light on this mentality?
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Annie Anthrax
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #8 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 1:43pm
 
Quote:
Are there any examples of collective punishment in the Koran that may shed light on this mentality?


Have you considered reading it to find out?
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freediver
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #9 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 1:46pm
 
I'm told I wouldn't understand it unless I read it in Arabic. And even then I would have no right to comment on it without approval from some kind of cleric, which is hard seeing as clerics don't exist.

How would I know which bits abrogate other bits? How would I know when Mohammed was miselading people about Islam to trick them into joining, and when he was revealing the true nature of Islam?

I think it's simpler to just ask a Muslim. I don't go to medical school when I feel sick.
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abu_rashid
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #10 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 2:01pm
 
Perhaps if you ceased the absurd argumentation within yourself and just read it, then you could draw your own conclusions?

Nobody can forbid you from making your own claims about it after you read it, we just wouldn't listen to them, obviously...
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #11 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 2:09pm
 
It is your interpretation that is of interest to me Abu, not my own.
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abu_rashid
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #12 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 2:33pm
 

Quote:
I tried looking but couldn't find anything on Jewish supporters of death by stoning. I did find this on wikipedia though:


The info is out there, you're just not that interested in looking at it, and the media isn't that interested in showing it to you. Here's a few links regarding Jewish attitudes towards Halacha, especially the more violent aspects:

Religious Affairs: Who's afraid of a halachic state?
Halacha & Shari'ah
Zionist settler arrested for implementing Halacha with his own hands
Another vigilante style Halacha implementation
Killing non-Jews, even kids, is acceptable for a Jew, according to Halacha
The King's Torah
Rabbi Lior: Killing civilians is ok according to Halacha

Also since Jews are usually not as open as Muslims about their beliefs, it's going to be harder for you to come across details of the moves to re-implement Halacha. Much of the "rules of engagement" that the Zionist state adopts are written up by panels of Rabbis and are based on Halacha.

Quote:
The official teachings of Judaism approve the death penalty in principle but the standard of proof required for application of death penalty is extremely stringent, and in practice


And the Islamic proofs required are even more stringent than the Jewish ones.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #13 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 2:42pm
 
Quote:
How would I know which bits abrogate other bits?


Use your critical thinking skills.
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Re: innocence and collective punishment in Islam
Reply #14 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 2:59pm
 
Quote:
Use your critical thinking skills.


And in the absence of those?  Grin
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