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'common sense' vs evidence (Read 27656 times)
It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #15 - Nov 4th, 2010 at 12:15am
 
Yep.
As far as indigenous peoples go around the world, right down to Easter Island -
"reputation precedes them".

I think I read the 'statistic' I mentioned before, in the Jesse Martin book "Lionheart" (which I can't find to confirm) ...?

A Scientist will tell you that the Earth is not at the Centre of the Universe.
But a Spiritualist will tell you that the Earth IS the centre of OUR universe.
...both are right. Wink

So with that said.
I still think it is 'MONEY' that drives the Scientific assessment that Whaling is free to commence.
I think this is 'premature'.
I'm in no delusion that the NATURAL world can go back to the way it was and that we can't put an entire HALT upon all Fishing activities
and
as much as I agree with Environementalist/Conservationist,
I think they can get off their butts and do a lot more that just tell people from 'overpopulated' nations to STOP.
They need to come up with ways to help 'proliferate' wild food stocks more so than they did previously.
If E/C's are 'over the top' with their demands to stop whaling, deforestation, etc ...it is in pure reaction to the 'blantant wastage' of the natural world.
Hunt for purpose and food, not Trophy or for the sake of it.

The SpearFishing scene in New Zealand is taking a new approach as the 'protectors' of their underwater environment with 'responsible' actions and education. "We are protecting 'our' environment, 'our' future" one said on a Dive Forum.
Commercial Fishing Australia is looking to turn the entire NSW coast into a 20km NO TAKE ZONE - Sanctuary. This knocks out the local 'Recreational' competitor (who sometimes undercuts the Commercial Fisherman and sells to Restaurants) who the majority - can't get out past 20km's. It also follows the Poor Knights and Goat Island system by allowing a 'buffer' to build up stocks naturally and allow the Aust Commercial Fishing Industry to reap greater size and number 'spillover'.
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #16 - Nov 4th, 2010 at 8:39pm
 
Quote:
Commercial Fisherman and sells to Restaurants) who the majority - can't get out past 20km's. It also follows the Poor Knights and Goat Island system by allowing a 'buffer' to build up stocks naturally and allow the Aust Commercial Fishing Industry to reap greater size and number 'spillover'.


That is the opposite of the economically rational approach to marine park site selection. You can't achieve sustainability by ignoring the eocnomic and social implications.

Quote:
As far as indigenous peoples go around the world, right down to Easter Island -
"reputation precedes them".


I prefer to stick to the facts.

BTW, do you include Africans with 'them'?
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It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #17 - Nov 5th, 2010 at 3:49pm
 
Quote:
Quote:
Commercial Fisherman and sells to Restaurants) who the majority - can't get out past 20km's. It also follows the Poor Knights and Goat Island system by allowing a 'buffer' to build up stocks naturally and allow the Aust Commercial Fishing Industry to reap greater size and number 'spillover'.

That is the opposite of the economically rational approach to marine park site selection. You can't achieve sustainability by ignoring the eocnomic and social implications.


Short term pain - long term gain. I for one agree with the Commercial Fishing Industry on this one - they are protecting their assets for the long term. The damage already done (over-fishing)is the 'price' that will be paid for the adjustment.

Quote:
Quote:
As far as indigenous peoples go around the world, right down to Easter Island -
"reputation precedes them".

I prefer to stick to the facts.

BTW, do you include Africans with 'them'?


Not as much no - the loss of Species by Bantu (africans) was very minimal ...and you can blame deforestation in the Sahara region to the Arabian-Berber-Egyptian peoples in the old days.
The Bantu was one people who could live in the Garden out of choice, rather than out of inability to build cities - they were Farmers basically, and they farmed Wildly, as well as domesticatedly.
Great Zimbabwe was built between the Shona (dated a Colonel once Wink and she was hot!) and the Ndbele, more as a 'fortification' than a city structure. Mostly, the common Bantu building was a Kraal. Northern Africa had influences from Egypt, the Mediterreanean, Asia.

I think the Australian Aboriginal peoples - ironically the most 'land' dependent peoples ever "we are a part of the land", were also responsible for the most extinctions - namedly, the Mega Fauna.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #18 - Nov 5th, 2010 at 4:23pm
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Nov 5th, 2010 at 3:49pm:
Quote:
Quote:
Commercial Fisherman and sells to Restaurants) who the majority - can't get out past 20km's. It also follows the Poor Knights and Goat Island system by allowing a 'buffer' to build up stocks naturally and allow the Aust Commercial Fishing Industry to reap greater size and number 'spillover'.

That is the opposite of the economically rational approach to marine park site selection. You can't achieve sustainability by ignoring the eocnomic and social implications.


Short term pain - long term gain. I for one agree with the Commercial Fishing Industry on this one - they are protecting their assets for the long term. The damage already done (over-fishing)is the 'price' that will be paid for the adjustment.

Quote:
Quote:
As far as indigenous peoples go around the world, right down to Easter Island -
"reputation precedes them".

I prefer to stick to the facts.

BTW, do you include Africans with 'them'?


Not as much no - the loss of Species by Bantu (africans) was very minimal ...and you can blame deforestation in the Sahara region to the Arabian-Berber-Egyptian peoples in the old days.
The Bantu was one people who could live in the Garden out of choice, rather than out of inability to build cities - they were Farmers basically, and they farmed Wildly, as well as domesticatedly.
Great Zimbabwe was built between the Shona (dated a Colonel once Wink and she was hot!) and the Ndbele, more as a 'fortification' than a city structure. Mostly, the common Bantu building was a Kraal. Northern Africa had influences from Egypt, the Mediterreanean, Asia.

I think the Australian Aboriginal peoples - ironically the most 'land' dependent peoples ever "we are a part of the land", were also responsible for the most extinctions - namedly, the Mega Fauna.



Oh for gods sake.....the Sahara region wasn't because of 'deforestation' it was because the climate dried out...logging had nothing to do with...

The same thing spelled the demise of the Mega-Fauna here in Australia...Changes in climate, leading to a reduction of the amount and type of vegetation is what killed the Mega Fauna....
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It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #19 - Nov 5th, 2010 at 5:17pm
 
Quote:
Oh for gods sake.....the Sahara region wasn't because of 'deforestation' it was because the climate dried out...logging had nothing to do with...

The same thing spelled the demise of the Mega-Fauna here in Australia...Changes in climate, leading to a reduction of the amount and type of vegetation is what killed the Mega Fauna....


Not even close Gizmo - you get rid of the Trees (etc) and you are drying the area out. You are removing that cool moist barrier between canopy and ground.
And BBQ (Carib) has been around for a long time with the Aboriginals doing it on a large scale. When the settlers arrived, Sydney Basin was neatly 'burnt' to keep underbrush to a minimum - resulting in nice forests of trees only.

There is so less many trees today (75% reduction I reckon) - coincidently bringing the idea of Global Warming.
Put in 6+Billion carbon dioxide producers and things a kinda warm indeed. Ever been in a small room with heaps of people - gets kinda stuffy and sweaty real fast
...common sense.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #20 - Nov 5th, 2010 at 5:22pm
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Nov 5th, 2010 at 5:17pm:
Quote:
Oh for gods sake.....the Sahara region wasn't because of 'deforestation' it was because the climate dried out...logging had nothing to do with...

The same thing spelled the demise of the Mega-Fauna here in Australia...Changes in climate, leading to a reduction of the amount and type of vegetation is what killed the Mega Fauna....


Not even close Gizmo - you get rid of the Trees (etc) and you are drying the area out. You are removing that cool moist barrier between canopy and ground.
And BBQ (Carib) has been around for a long time with the Aboriginals doing it on a large scale. When the settlers arrived, Sydney Basin was neatly 'burnt' to keep underbrush to a minimum - resulting in nice forests of trees only.

There is so less many trees today (75% reduction I reckon) - coincidently bringing the idea of Global Warming.
Put in 6+Billion carbon dioxide producers and things a kinda warm indeed. Ever been in a small room with heaps of people - gets kinda stuffy and sweaty real fast
...common sense.



And if the Continent drifts closer to the Equator, then the summers become drier and the rainforests turn into deciduous, and then into savannah and finally into deserts...
The closer to the Equator, the hotter and drier the climate and the less lush the vegetation...


"The climate of the Sahara has undergone enormous variation between wet and dry over the last few hundred thousand years.[11] During the last glacial period, the Sahara was even bigger than it is today, extending south beyond its current boundaries.[12] The end of the glacial period brought more rain to the Sahara, from about 8000 BC to 6000 BC, perhaps due to low pressure areas over the collapsing ice sheets to the north.[13]

Once the ice sheets were gone, northern Sahara dried out. In the southern Sahara though, the drying trend was soon counteracted by the monsoon, which brought rain further north than it does today. The monsoon is due to heating of air over the land during summer. The hot air rises and pulls in cool, wet air from the ocean, which causes rain. Thus, though it seems counterintuitive, the Sahara was wetter when it received more insolation in the summer. This was caused by a stronger tilt in Earth's axis of orbit than today, and perihelion occurred at the end of July.[14]

By around 3400 BC, the monsoon retreated south to approximately where it is today,[15] leading to the gradual desertification of the Sahara.[16] The Sahara is now as dry as it was about 13,000 years ago.[11] These conditions are responsible for what has been called the Sahara pump theory."

What is this fascination you have with  (75%)????

"humans caused a 75% reduction in Bison herds"
"humans caused a 75% reduction in tree numbers"...

Why is it always 75%???

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #21 - Nov 5th, 2010 at 5:36pm
 
Wrong.
The Equator provides 'lush and vibrant' growth like Amazon, Central America, Indonesia, south India  - monsoon activity.
You are probably thinking of the 'Dry Belts' of which Australia is unlucky enough to be within. But this doesn't negate good rainfall, if it is 'provided' for ...by planting more Trees to cool the surface temperature, etc.

I remember the Orange Roughy was nearly obliterated by so-called 'responsible and scientifically backed' Trawling.
Another unique species nearly wiped out!
Again, reputation precedes and I wonder why the Ferals get angry and the Hippys cry foul to much extreme.

Why should Whales pay the price of our irresponsible greed and over-population?

Sticker on Car: Re Petrol and Cigarette price rise - if I pollute, I might as well 'pay' for it.

So I wonder when the Govt is gonna cough up $500 million to the Environmentalists/Conservationists in compensation for allowing the Nipponese to Whale illegally in 'sanctuary' waters - rather than giving it to the Indonesians?
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #22 - Nov 5th, 2010 at 8:33pm
 
Quote:
Short term pain - long term gain. I for one agree with the Commercial Fishing Industry on this one - they are protecting their assets for the long term. The damage already done (over-fishing)is the 'price' that will be paid for the adjustment.


It is the details of the plan I disagree with.

Quote:
The Bantu was one people who could live in the Garden out of choice, rather than out of inability to build cities


The reason why Africans did not kill off the megafauna is simple and nothing to do with culture or the specific people - it is because the animals are adapted to living with human hunters and respond appropriately.

Quote:
Not even close Gizmo - you get rid of the Trees (etc) and you are drying the area out. You are removing that cool moist barrier between canopy and ground.


Jas, the area is cool and moist because the trees are sucking all the moisture from the ground and putting it into the air. The trees don;t bring the moisture to the soil - they do the opposite. They are there because of the rain, not vice versa. This is well established.

Quote:
And if the Continent drifts closer to the Equator, then the summers become drier and the rainforests turn into deciduous, and then into savannah and finally into deserts...
The closer to the Equator, the hotter and drier the climate and the less lush the vegetation...


The deserts tend to be a bit off the equator, and will move further from the equator with global warming - bad news for Perth.

Quote:
Why should Whales pay the price of our irresponsible greed and over-population?


They are not 'paying the price'. Your argument is based on an assumption that Whales start on a different level to every other animal and that we must justify treating them the same way.
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #23 - Nov 5th, 2010 at 8:35pm
 
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It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #24 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 4:58am
 
Trees provide shade and shade stops the soil from drying out/overheating ...which in turn provides better conditions for such things as worms which in turn provides better soil again (hence worm farms).
Face it. The aboriginals attempts at 'terra-forming' were as good as the Namerican indians holding feathers to fly into space. Roll Eyes Yeah right oh great sky spirit.

The Trees of Appin Rd have been booked to be removed because of the drugged/drunk/speeding/P-platers that promote inability and irresponsibility ...again, a species paying a price for our 'inferiorities'.

The Mexicans want the right to kill Orca becasue the Orca are "taking all their fish". Never considering their own Fishing methods and quantities over the starving Orca  Roll Eyes

Watch "Killers of Eden" doco about the town on the NSW south coast and how, even under such circumstances of hunting Humpback - the Orca are let down and betrayed by "failings of the Human character".



No offence fellas, but the world is over-populated, has too much freedom and is currently expressing something 'pathetic' in its actions.
Its like this planet is still run by 'primitive' peoples who had to rise up against the 'beasts of the world' to become the Apex species.
... I guess this is where Australia comes into it? Providing the 'restraint' that comes with the 'Prisoned' mentality.  Wink
Discipline. Its something severly lacking since ...since Australia quietly became a Penal colony 200+ years ago and has been 'lost' ever since.

...and they say "Lest we forget", well I think a lot of Australians have forgotten about a lot of things.


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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #25 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 8:11am
 
Quote:
Face it. The aboriginals attempts at 'terra-forming' were as good as the Namerican indians holding feathers to fly into space. Roll Eyes Yeah right oh great sky spirit.


Yet you cling to similarly absurd views about terraforming despite the evidence. Is this another case of 'common sense' trumping facts for you?
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Re: Why we should allow whaling
Reply #26 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 8:27am
 
It_is_the_Darkness wrote on Nov 5th, 2010 at 5:17pm:
[quote]quote]

When the settlers arrived, Sydney Basin was neatly 'burnt' to keep underbrush to a minimum - resulting in nice forests of trees only.



You do realise that the Australian Eucalypts and some native plants require fire to germinate seeds???
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It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: 'common sense' vs evidence
Reply #27 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 10:42am
 
Yeah I do realise that Gizmo - I've just finished reading "Gum" which is all about Eucalypts and the people involved with them over the centuries.
...but so-called 'Clever Australia' can't even bother to live in Straw Bale Houses as a Fire Preventative measure, because it is deemed too "hippy" or "alternative". So do you think living in a constantly 'Fired' environment with the way things are is going to go?
Eucalypts are very 'intelligent' trees and are adaptable ...there will still be fires for them.

I wouldn't call my 'terra-forming' views absurd. They do well for the Nile Delta and a few other places around the world. We just have the potential to do it on a grander scale.
...noticed Abbott was out at the Murray-Darling.








...what a waste. Roll Eyes

I really can't wait until Humanity is replaced.
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It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: 'common sense' vs evidence
Reply #28 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 11:52am
 
Grin Grin Grin

nice touch.

Well I hope you know what you're doing Freediver, when you're left without the Instructions. Smiley
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Re: 'common sense' vs evidence
Reply #29 - Nov 6th, 2010 at 2:35pm
 
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I really can't wait until Humanity is replaced.


smacking loathesome.
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