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Question: SHould wife-smacking be allowed

Yes - always    
  0 (0.0%)
Yes - if she burns the toast    
  0 (0.0%)
Only if she is really naughty    
  1 (33.3%)
Only if she likes it    
  1 (33.3%)
No - never ever under any circumstances    
  1 (33.3%)




Total votes: 3
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wife beating in Islam (Read 54078 times)
Jaykaye_09
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #60 - Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:00pm
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 21st, 2010 at 10:45pm:
I'm not saying Abu in particular, though I do take issue with the notion that a husband has any right whatsoever to 'discipline' his wife (not least of all physically).

- Jay


So .. not JUST Abu eh? And you do concede there are issues even where he is concerned.


I understand that he's drawn a line between causing serious physical damage or assault and a 'smack' similar to that you might give your child. However, a grown woman is not a child. The reasoning that suggests smacking a child - albeit lightly - might make them aware that their behaviour is unacceptable, does not hold when you're talking about a fully grown, primarily independent woman.

- Jay


Oohh ... seems you're in for a little shock then ..

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1287049789

Happy reading!


I concede there are issues. Abu and I do not see eye to eye on everything, not even close.

And I'm not necessarily opposed to a parent giving their child a little 'smack'. I do however believe that anything that causes serious physical harm crosses a line.

If a child is bruised, as mentioned in the link you provided above, then I'd question the capacity of that parent to exercise constraint (at the very least).

In no circumstances is the bruising of a child acceptable, intentional or otherwise.
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If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.
 
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Axle
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #61 - Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:10pm
 
skippy. wrote on Oct 20th, 2010 at 7:48am:
Quote:
This is not a very encouraging thread. It seems that everyone has their own uninformed opinion of what is the case. Seriously, it seems that Muslims are being held to account to a higher standard than what goes on in everyday society. Domestic violence is rife in Australia. No one group owns it or most of it. Recall the campain against it? Australia says no?


Yea well when your IQ reaches 50 you might realise the difference is MUSLIMS CONDONE THE BASHING OF WOMEN, NO other religion does, retard.


In any case, it seems that you were answered by Jaykaye09. However, you might like to improve your arguments by refraining from ad hom attacks, screaming caplocks, and emotive language. They count for zip.

How is it that Muslims who don't condone it and don't do it get lumped in with your implied ALL Muslims condone it? You seem to be riddled with fallacious argument right down to the last turtle.

I found this:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2010/07/11/2950543.htm

Unfortunately, it seems some like to run with some populist notions of what is the case about what all  Muslims are about and never bother to see if there's anything contrary or to bother giving individuals the benefit of their own merits

I find that really sinister. That's the kind of thinking that led to internment camps, pogroms, gas chambers and killing fields.
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« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:21pm by Axle »  
 
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Lisa Jones
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #62 - Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:14pm
 
I concede there are issues. Abu and I do not see eye to eye on everything, not even close.

And I'm not necessarily opposed to a parent giving their child a little 'smack'. I do however believe that anything that causes serious physical harm crosses a line.

If a child is bruised, as mentioned in the link you provided above, then I'd question the capacity of that parent to exercise constraint (at the very least).

In no circumstances is the bruising of a child acceptable, intentional or otherwise.

- Jay


I merely provided you with a link which detailed Abu ie this message board Moderator's construction of acceptable child disciplining ...

and if you read that link in its entirety .. you will also note that the Koran is the basis .. the authority in forming such a construction.

Oh you may have noticed my condemnation in that link .. but apparently I was being an over emotional female.

Interesting what you read on these boards .. wouldn't you say Jay???

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Lisa Jones
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #63 - Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:21pm
 
He wasn't a 'vague Friar Tuck', and his writings were held in high regard.

And I DID write 'religious texts'. However, even if we were talking about the Bible, the principle remains i.e. there are things that are written that are today not practiced.

- Jay


Did you read my previous post wherein I stated that:

We're talking KORAN and BIBLE here? Let's retain context .. please!!!

We're not considering little bits and pieces written here and there by friars (or nuns for that matter).

So could we stick with the program .. and continue the consideration of primary religious documents here as we have been for the entirety of this topic?

Oh and we're talking wife beating in particular .. we're not discussing other general practices just wife beating... hence the title???


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« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:37pm by Lisa Jones »  

Quote by a member re THE EX CABBIE DRIVER :

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Jaykaye_09
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #64 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 1:34am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:21pm:
He wasn't a 'vague Friar Tuck', and his writings were held in high regard.

And I DID write 'religious texts'. However, even if we were talking about the Bible, the principle remains i.e. there are things that are written that are today not practiced.

- Jay


Did you read my previous post wherein I stated that:

We're talking KORAN and BIBLE here? Let's retain context .. please!!!

We're not considering little bits and pieces written here and there by friars (or nuns for that matter).

So could we stick with the program .. and continue the consideration of primary religious documents here as we have been for the entirety of this topic?

Oh and we're talking wife beating in particular .. we're not discussing other general practices just wife beating... hence the title???




No love, YOU'RE talking about the Bible and Quran.

I was pointing out just how stupid skippy's comment was, that explicitly said "Muslims condone the bashing of women". If you bothered to read my post, you would see the overall point i.e. that the followers of a faith cannot be entirely defined by interpretations of ancient religious texts (be it the Quran, Bible, or the Rules of Marriage), as people's adherence/reaction to those texts change over time.

Clearly, you're looking for an argument.

You're not getting one. Peace.
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If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.
 
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Jaykaye_09
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #65 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 1:35am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 21st, 2010 at 11:14pm:
I concede there are issues. Abu and I do not see eye to eye on everything, not even close.

And I'm not necessarily opposed to a parent giving their child a little 'smack'. I do however believe that anything that causes serious physical harm crosses a line.

If a child is bruised, as mentioned in the link you provided above, then I'd question the capacity of that parent to exercise constraint (at the very least).

In no circumstances is the bruising of a child acceptable, intentional or otherwise.

- Jay


I merely provided you with a link which detailed Abu ie this message board Moderator's construction of acceptable child disciplining ...

and if you read that link in its entirety .. you will also note that the Koran is the basis .. the authority in forming such a construction.

Oh you may have noticed my condemnation in that link .. but apparently I was being an over emotional female.

Interesting what you read on these boards .. wouldn't you say Jay???



Yes, and I told you what I think of that.

I disagree with Abu.

Simple.
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If I don't respond to a post directed toward me, it's probably because I've gone offline, not because I'm rude.&&&&Or maybe I don't like you. In which case, sod off. Ta.
 
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abu_rashid
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #66 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 6:28am
 
Jay,

Quote:
I concede there are issues. Abu and I do not see eye to eye on everything, not even close.

And I'm not necessarily opposed to a parent giving their child a little 'smack'. I do however believe that anything that causes serious physical harm crosses a line.

If a child is bruised, as mentioned in the link you provided above, then I'd question the capacity of that parent to exercise constraint (at the very least).

In no circumstances is the bruising of a child acceptable, intentional or otherwise.


That's 100% my view as well, and I believe the view of Islam. A controlled, rational disciplining smack is acceptable (and sometimes required) but not out of control beatings, that would be abuse, domestic, wife, child, whatever it is to be called, it is abuse.
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Lisa Jones
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #67 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 10:38am
 
That's 100% my view as well, and I believe the view of Islam. A controlled, rational disciplining smack is acceptable (and sometimes required) but not out of control beatings, that would be abuse, domestic, wife, child, whatever it is to be called, it is abuse.

- Abu 22 /10/2010


You know Abu .. I'm beginning to think there is something seriously deficient in your cognitive reasoning area  ..

1) You have learned nothing even after everyone on here condemned your Islam based views on child beating and wife beating

2) You are NOW attempting to both backpeddle AND strangely enough MAINTAIN what you stated before even though you're contradicting yourself left, right and centre.

3) The fact remains .. YOU posted hell for leather for days on end trying to assert THIS view and I quote ...


Hitting need not be abusive. Parents often hit their children to discipline them, and it's usually not abusive, even when it causes bruising sometimes.  stated by Abu - Oct 14th, 2010, 6:56pm:


http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1285753174/135#137



The full text is in that link .. and it doesn't look good for you given you used Islam and the Koran as the basis for asserting the above ridiculous statement which was responded to with utter condemnation by the rest of this message board. .

You've taken a break from this topic and the boards to think about damage control .. and you've come back still using Islam and the Koran as the basis for what you say .. and remember Islam and the Koran says/supports this:

Parents often hit their children to discipline them, and it's usually not abusive, even when it causes bruising sometimes.


And you have asserted for months now that YOUR view is ISLAM's view because it was based on the KORAN.

It's both sad and pathetic to see that you still can't reconcile the fact that these views have no place in Australia and not only that .. they break the law here in Australia.

Lastly .. your latest posts reveal the utter turmoil and confusion in your mind at this moment .. and that may very well be a good thing for you. Hopefully you will FINALLY see the mess your mind is in .. and start to sort yourself out.

Kind regards

Lisa



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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2010 at 10:51am by Lisa Jones »  

Quote by a member re THE EX CABBIE DRIVER :

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Lisa Jones
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #68 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 11:07am
 
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 19th, 2010 at 9:27pm:
Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 19th, 2010 at 9:09pm:
skippy. wrote on Oct 19th, 2010 at 12:29pm:
Quote:
Islam supports physical discipline in extreme cases where a wife takes to rebelliousness and does not listen to her husband.



That is domestic violence, and if you advocate it you are no better than the perpetrator.
I have always stood up for you here Abu, as I think you get a hard time just because you're a Muslim, but making statements like that makes me think I was wrong, you are no better, if you condone domestic violence, which you obviously do, you are a  
[mod: expletives removed, keep it clean]







And there you have it .. take a good hard look at it everyone ..

the practice of physically abusing another family member is masked under the euphemism and cover of  PHYSICAL DISCIPLINE

.. and under what EXTREME circumstances???

in extreme cases where a wife takes to rebelliousness and does not listen to her husband.


I rest my case.

And I hold my head up high as a proud Australian woman because I have the courage of my conviction to stand up against this type of religious institutionalisation of domestic violence.

In fact I abhor it and totally condemn it.

Kind regards

Lisa



Oh and the encouraging thing in all this???

Irrespective of what Islam states or what Abu has stated above ... THE LAW OF AUSTRALIA .. THE COUNTRY OF MY BIRTH and CITIZENSHIP PROTECTS ME AS AN AUSTRALIAN WOMAN AGAINST THIS RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONALIZATION OF DOMESTIC VIOLENCE .. and as such I am able to press charges against my "husband" and he may even be sent to prison IF he lays a finger on me.

Thank you!


As I said Abu .. it doesn't look good (for you).

Have a nice day!

Kind regards

Lisa
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Bobby.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #69 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 11:30am
 
Yeah - Abu - take your 5th century barbaric ways & go & live in Iran.

We don't want your ways in the West.
It's a criminal offence to hit a woman here.
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skippy.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #70 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 12:25pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 11:30am:
Yeah - Abu - take your 5th century barbaric ways & go & live in Iran.

We don't want your ways in the West.
It's a criminal offence to hit a woman here.


Not to abu its not, he doesn't worry about Australian law, Islam is all that matters
did you learn your censorship from the Koran ,Abu?
It shows what sort of person you are when you delete my posts yet condone bashing women.
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« Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2010 at 1:12pm by skippy. »  

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Bobby.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #71 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 1:49pm
 
skippy. wrote on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 12:25pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 11:30am:
Yeah - Abu - take your 5th century barbaric ways & go & live in Iran.

We don't want your ways in the West.
It's a criminal offence to hit a woman here.


Not to abu its not, he doesn't worry about Australian law, Islam is all that matters
did you learn your censorship from the Koran ,Abu?
It shows what sort of person you are when you delete my posts yet condone bashing women.


Of course - the Koran overides our laws.
God overides laws from mere mortals. Wink
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skippy.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #72 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 3:59pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 1:49pm:
skippy. wrote on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 12:25pm:
Bobby. wrote on Oct 22nd, 2010 at 11:30am:
Yeah - Abu - take your 5th century barbaric ways & go & live in Iran.

We don't want your ways in the West.
It's a criminal offence to hit a woman here.


Not to abu its not, he doesn't worry about Australian law, Islam is all that matters
did you learn your censorship from the Koran ,Abu?
It shows what sort of person you are when you delete my posts yet condone bashing women.


Of course - the Koran overides our laws.
God overides laws from mere mortals. Wink


That's just it, there is no god, Allah or anything else, yet these retards base their whole life on worshiping a fictitious character who lives in the clouds.
I'm glad I'm not so insecure that I have to resort to such rot.


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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #73 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 4:25pm
 
Shocked
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abu_rashid
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #74 - Oct 22nd, 2010 at 9:54pm
 
Quote:
You know Abu .. I'm beginning to think there is something seriously deficient in your cognitive reasoning area  ..


Coming from you that's not much of an insult. You ain't the sharpest tool in the shed it seems.

Quote:
1) You have learned nothing even after everyone on here condemned your Islam based views on child beating and wife beating


So far the only religious-based views I've seen mentioned on these forums are those muso posted from the Bible. I shall re-quote them for clarity:

Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverbs 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Proverbs 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.


So you approve of beating a child with a rod, so long as it doesn't quite kill him? Instill in him a bit of wisdom will it and avert him from foolishness...

I'm sorry but the Qur'an teaches no such thing, and neither have I. Your botched attempts to sensationalise my statements have only worked on a few of the more feeble minded forummers, most have seen them for what they were.

Nowhere did I ever state beating/abusing a child is right, I'll leave that up to your 'holy' book.

Quote:
2) You are NOW attempting to both backpeddle..


The only reason you misidentify my statements as backpeddling is because you failed to actually read my initial statements.

In your rush to sensationalise them, create posts dedicated to them, and then link frantically to them in every thread you're involved in, you actually forgot to read them... Nowhere did I ever claim it's good to beat a child.

Quote:
Hitting need not be abusive. Parents often hit their children to discipline them, and it's usually not abusive, even when it causes bruising sometimes.  stated by Abu - Oct 14th, 2010, 6:56pm:


And I'm sure most sane, rational, thinking forummers here agree that a disciplinary smack is sometimes necessary when raising kids. The only reason I mentioned bruising is because as a child my parents sometimes caused minor bruising when smacking, yet it was quite obvious they never intended it to be so, and it was not in an abusive manner, but a corrective one. And I'm sure for many others the experience has been the same, probably even for you yourself. Enough of the hype and overdone reactions... please, and let's get back to reality.

Quote:
The full text is in that link .. and it doesn't look good for you given you used..


You're seriously off your rocker if you think you've created some kind of "thread of shame" there. Honestly, wake up to yourself.

Quote:
Parents often hit their children to discipline them, and it's usually not abusive, even when it causes bruising sometimes.


An indication of just how un-powerful this quote really is, you had to repeat it only a few lines later, in order to re-hash it's supposed effectiveness.

Quote:
And you have asserted for months now that YOUR view is ISLAM's view because it was based on the KORAN


Nevermind my view of the Qur'an (which doesn't speak about beating kids with rods), how about you tell us your view of the Bible, and specifically the passages from Proverbs above? After all, you claimed to be an expert on the Bible did you not? So please tell us all about beating kids with rods, so it doesn't cause death of course.

Quote:
It's both sad and pathetic to see that you still can't reconcile the fact that these views have no place in Australia and not only that .. they break the law here in Australia.


They do no such thing.

Quote:
Lastly .. your latest posts reveal the utter turmoil and confusion in your mind...


Well at least there's a mind here to be confused and in utter turmoil, more than can be said for some.
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