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Question: SHould wife-smacking be allowed

Yes - always    
  0 (0.0%)
Yes - if she burns the toast    
  0 (0.0%)
Only if she is really naughty    
  1 (33.3%)
Only if she likes it    
  1 (33.3%)
No - never ever under any circumstances    
  1 (33.3%)




Total votes: 3
« Created by: True Colours on: Jul 30th, 2013 at 8:45pm »

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wife beating in Islam (Read 54168 times)
freediver
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #150 - Nov 9th, 2010 at 7:29pm
 
Abu, if those questions are too hard, perhaps you could give some examples of people who have been punished under Islamic law for taking the 'disciplining' of a strong willed wife too far?
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abu_rashid
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #151 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:32am
 
Which questions fd? All we've seen so far here are nonsensical ramblings and sensationalist claims.

As I've told you all along, ask sensible and adult answers, and I'm more than happy to oblige. Make ridiculous claims and outright fabrications (eg. your quoting of me about the Bible's attitude to men's ownership of their wife's body, claiming it's the Islamic viewpoint) and I'm not even going to dignify it with a proper response.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #152 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 6:03pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Nov 10th, 2010 at 12:32am:
Which questions fd? All we've seen so far here are nonsensical ramblings and sensationalist claims.

As I've told you all along, ask sensible and adult answers, and I'm more than happy to oblige. Make ridiculous claims and outright fabrications (eg. your quoting of me about the Bible's attitude to men's ownership of their wife's body, claiming it's the Islamic viewpoint) and I'm not even going to dignify it with a proper response.


Are men and women equal in your interpretation of the Koran? Within your personal belief/faith.

Obviously the answer is broad and relates to more than a mans right/ability/obligation to discipline his wife or female relatives.
That is of course if he has the right/ability/obligation to do so.
It would relate also to your definition of equal. It would be beneficial to compare you’re beliefs with western ideals about equality. Please understand that i am not suggesting that the western ideals work or that they are even present in practice. But i am sure that you are aware of the majority western view and belief about equality of the sexes.

Sorry if you have already answered somewhere, if you have i would very much appreciate a link.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #153 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 7:24pm
 
freediver wrote on Oct 30th, 2010 at 9:31pm:
Quote:
Since Islam does not state any of these things.


Any of what things? It was a question Abu.

Quote:
Since I've never claimed it can, why would I explain it?


You brought up bruising Abu, not me. I am only asking for clarification. Do you need me to quote you? Am I supposed to make sense of your contradictions myself, or would that be putting words in your mouth?

Quote:
Again, Islam doesn't say can beat your wife.


Opps, sometimes I forget to speak Islamic instead of English to you. How about this:

Does Islam say anything about what you can and cannot use to 'discipline' your wife with?

When you say Islam permits 'disciplining' your wife for rebelliousness, does this basically mean disobediance - if a wife doesn't do as she is told?

According to Islam, how far is 'too far' when it comes to 'disciplining' your wife? You have mentioned that you see no problem with bruising - can you elaborate?

Does "I hit you because I love you" sum up in a fair way the Islamic philosophy on 'disciplining' rebellious wives?


Also, can you give some examples of people who have been punished under Islamic law for taking the 'disciplining' of a strong willed wife too far?
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abu_rashid
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #154 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 8:48pm
 
jame-e,

Quote:
Are men and women equal in your interpretation of the Koran? Within your personal belief/faith.


In the general sense, yes men and women are equal. In specific issues, they are not equal, each has different rights and responsibilities. Islam firmly believes in the concept of the man being in authority over the house, yet at the same time it gives more rights to the woman over the day to day running of the family. A child for instance has more responsibility to obey their mother than their father, from the famous hadith when a man asked who has more right to his obedience after God, to which Muhammad (pbuh) answered "your mother", the man then asked "and then who?" to which he again replied "your mother" until he'd said it 3 times, then he finally said "your father".

Personally I think the lack of a strong family structure like this is what is leading to the breakdown of Western societies. All the emphasis on equality is just ruining society as we've always known it. Does that mean anyone should be oppressed? downtrodden? ignored? excluded from decision making? No. Only people who go to extremes would make such accusations. Those who believe it's either men and woman are exactly the same in all things, or someone must be oppressed.

Quote:
But i am sure that you are aware of the majority western view and belief about equality of the sexes.


Of course I am aware, since I did spend the vast majority of my life so far as a non-Muslim Westerner.
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« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2010 at 9:09pm by abu_rashid »  
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #155 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 9:19pm
 
[mod: Propaganda & slander have been removed, and direct quotes only left]


"Islam Channel breaks British broadcast rules, regulator says," by Richard Allen Greene for CNN, November 8

"just to make her feel that you are not happy with her."

"To refuse relations would harm a marriage," a guest on the program said.
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« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2010 at 10:38pm by abu_rashid »  
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #156 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 10:39pm
 
Stripped of all the embellishment that post doesn't really have much of an impact does it?
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #157 - Nov 10th, 2010 at 11:52pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Nov 10th, 2010 at 8:48pm:
jame-e,

Quote:
Are men and women equal in your interpretation of the Koran? Within your personal belief/faith.


In the general sense, yes men and women are equal. In specific issues, they are not equal, each has different rights and responsibilities. Islam firmly believes in the concept of the man being in authority over the house, yet at the same time it gives more rights to the woman over the day to day running of the family. A child for instance has more responsibility to obey their mother than their father, from the famous hadith when a man asked who has more right to his obedience after God, to which Muhammad (pbuh) answered "your mother", the man then asked "and then who?" to which he again replied "your mother" until he'd said it 3 times, then he finally said "your father".

Personally I think the lack of a strong family structure like this is what is leading to the breakdown of Western societies. All the emphasis on equality is just ruining society as we've always known it. Does that mean anyone should be oppressed? downtrodden? ignored? excluded from decision making? No. Only people who go to extremes would make such accusations. Those who believe it's either men and woman are exactly the same in all things, or someone must be oppressed.

Quote:
But i am sure that you are aware of the majority western view and belief about equality of the sexes.


Of course I am aware, since I did spend the vast majority of my life so far as a non-Muslim Westerner.



I totally and devoutly agree with you on you’re beliefs about equality. The essence of that belief in you and the Islamic faith is very positive. Women and men are not equal when compared with any mutual scale, and nor should they be. Except under the law, secular law of course.

The specifics of you’re beliefs being derivative of the Koran i do find concerning. Coupled with that concern are the conditions that exist in some nations governed using various forms of Islamic law. As you have spent the majority of you’re life as a non-Muslim westerner, and have participated in this thread, you must have an idea of the concerns i am referring to.

What do you feel are the biggest misunderstanders the non-Muslim criticisers have of Koranic law?  

Do you wish to live under a form of Koranic Law? How does your version compare to the other active examples?

Lastly, are you progressive in some way? Do you wish to see an end to some aspects of Islamic law that are currently in practice? Do you try/want to separate you’re self from any common ideas/beliefs in Islam?


A lot of questions, please try you’re best.  
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #158 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 8:05am
 
In considering the beating of wives that Islam permits it might be good to once again consider the relevant verses in the Koran.

Quote:
Verse 2:2:
This is the Book, whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are the pious and righteous persons who fear Allah much, abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden and love Allah much.

Verse 4:34:
Men are in charge of women by what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in the husband's absence what Allah would have them guard. But those wives from whom you fear arrogance - first advise them; then if they persist, forsake them in bed; and finally, strike them. But if they obey you once more, seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand.


Perhaps those versed in hermeneutics might point out where the word ‘lightly’ appears in the words passed to mankind by Allah. According to the words used by Allah, wives may be disciplined with a baseball bat, a hand, or a belt and all such beatings conform with the words ‘strike them’.  Attempts to explain the degree of force that may be used are silly attempts to civilise Islam.

It's worth noting that Allah in v2:2 (and others) grants no dispensation to any imam or individual muslim to provide an interpretation of the koran for a 'feel good' moment. The words in the koran are the immutable words from Allah, who by the way is the all-seeing and all-knowing one as well as being Exalted and Grand.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #159 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 7:10pm
 
The verse about the woman being beaten until she was green may give some guidance. Ultimately I think the best guide to the practice of Islam is how people were actually prosecuted under Islamic law for overstepping the mark. Personally, I find it hard to imagine someone being prosecuted for wife beating in a court that holds itself as Islamic, no matter how excessive, when they can point to that verse.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #160 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 8:27pm
 
Seriously guys, Abu is not a monkey.
If you wish to see one dance, go to the zoo.

Abu surly appears to most to be a man driven by his conviction. He has pride in himself and his beliefs. Attacking him with passages contained within his holy book do nothing but strengthen his belief that you’re ignorant. Ignorant of him. I would strongly defend Abu and his assertion that western ideas about equality between the sexes is flawed. Thats not to say that i will not argue against the totalistic principles and commands of the Koran.

My suggestion would be to find common ground, and then explore the differences. Not damn a man to fight against you. Freely attack Islam, but don’t let Abu become you’re attack.   



I also want to apologise to you Abu for the vomit comment (if you read it). I don’t associate you with the men in that book, just sometimes i over emotionalise  Smiley.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #161 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 9:09pm
 
fd,

Quote:
The verse about the woman being beaten until she was green may give some guidance.


There is no verse at all about women being beaten until they're green. Once again you've got it all inside out, upside down, face about.

There was a story from a hadith about a woman complaining of this, and her complaints were taken seriously, until it was revealed she had been slandering her husband, at which point she ceased being considered to have a case against him.

jame-e,

Quote:
Abu surly appears to most to be a man driven by his conviction. He has pride in himself and his beliefs. Attacking him with passages contained within his holy book do nothing but strengthen his belief that you’re ignorant. Ignorant of him. I would strongly defend Abu and his assertion that western ideas about equality between the sexes is flawed. Thats not to say that i will not argue against the totalistic principles and commands of the Koran.


Great to see we have another member with some reason and common sense here.

Quote:
I also want to apologise to you Abu for the vomit comment (if you read it). I don’t associate you with the men in that book, just sometimes i over emotionalise 


No problem at all, apology accepted.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #162 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 9:59pm
 
Quote:
Attacking him with passages contained within his holy book do nothing but strengthen his belief that you’re ignorant. Ignorant of him.


So what do you suggest? Ask him some simple questions about what he actually believes? Gee, why didn't I think of that?

Quote:
I would strongly defend Abu and his assertion that western ideas about equality between the sexes is flawed.


Western ideals about equality mean equality before the law, not that women have penises. Islamic ideals about equality between the sexes seem to begin at death.

Quote:
There was a story from a hadith about a woman complaining of this, and her complaints were taken seriously, until it was revealed she had been slandering her husband, at which point she ceased being considered to have a case against him.


So wife beating is OK if the woman deserves it?
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #163 - Nov 11th, 2010 at 11:28pm
 
Quote:
Axle, the finger is being pointed at everyone who promotes wife beating. It's just so happens that muslims are the only people doing so. If you recall, my approach to this is to let Muslims themselves decide what Islam is and to criticise them for their own views. Thus, my criticism of Abu need not have anything at all to do with Islam. He promotes wife beating. I criticise him for it. Simple. You would be hard pressed to find other people promoting wife beating, and I think you would find that Australians in general would be more openly critical of a non-Muslim promoting wife beating than a Muslim promoting it. You in fact demonstrate this. If Abu was just some violent redneck wife beater you would not hold back. But because he is a Muslim you expect everyone to walk on eggshells in case Islam is tainted merely because it's followers (and Muhammed himself) promote domestic violence.


Due to my slow connection, going back through this whole thread (forum) is very time consuming. Please excuse my assumptions FD. If Abu's convictions do accommodate wife beating, than he is indeed a monkey to be taunted.

Please could you give me a link that demonstrates the basis of you're belief that he does condone 'wife beating'. it would be much appreciated.

Does/would Abu oppress his wife? i hope not.

In the meantime (while i have time), i will read what i can.   
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #164 - Nov 12th, 2010 at 8:06am
 
Quote:
If Abu's convictions do accommodate wife beating, than he is indeed a monkey to be taunted.


Islam does not permit beating. It permits a disciplinary slap on the wrist for a wife who has gone beyond all bounds with rebelliousness, and there are other measures which must be tried before resorting to physical discipline. Nowhere does it condone abuse or beating in the sense that we know it in the West.

Quote:
Does/would Abu oppress his wife? i hope not.


God has said in the Islamic texts "I have forbidden oppression for myself and for you, so do not oppress one another".

Anyone who oppresses another human being is considered a criminal in Islam, full stop.
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