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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Consan.
Reply #60 - Oct 8^th, 2010 at 1:11pm

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I know you have, but I hope you understand that I am going to take the word of a Muslim on this.

Why ask questions about what I think if you're going to disregard my answers because I'm not a practicing Muslim?

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If you want to follow this up, most of the claims on the wiki are backed up by links to explanations from Abu, Malik and a few others.

I'll check them out tonight.

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So you don't think that stoning gays to death is evil?

Homosexuality is an issue that has caused a lot of debate between my Muslim husband and I, especially since we've reconciled. Debate is good because it motivates me to do my own research and from what I've read in the Quran, homosexuality is to be punished but the details of how that is to be carried out aren't clear. I believe the stoning idea comes from hadith, but has its roots in the time of the prophet Lot when God rained stones on the Sodomites.

But to answer your question, yes. I find the idea of stoning homosexuals or adulterers abhorrent.

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Mattyfisk Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 92265 Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #61 - Oct 8^th, 2010 at 2:37pm Some find the idea of stoned fruits abhorrent. When making a cake, always remove the pips. Otherwise, you're likely to lose a tooth. There is now historical proof that the stones God rained on Lot were meant for someone else.
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freediver

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Re: Consan.
Reply #62 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 10:08am

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Why ask questions about what I think if you're going to disregard my answers because I'm not a practicing Muslim?

I am not disregarding them. I am paying a lot of attention to the fact that you seem so certain of these claims even though Muslims contradict you. Also, I am trying very hard to get Abu to clarify the issue. I'm sure if you tried the same, we could wade through the apparent contradictions and come out with a better understanding of Islamic law.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Consan.
Reply #63 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 11:08am

As far as I'm concerned, if a law is from the Quran then it's reliable. If it's from Hadith and makes sense (as in doesn't contradict the Quran) then I'd believe that's reliably Islamic law too.

If it's in a hadith but openly contradicts the Quran or is so important it should be in the Quran but isn't (like the implementation of the death penalty by stoning) then I don't believe it or at the very least, doubt its authenticity.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Consan. Reply #64 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 11:27am My interest is not in establishing the 'real' Islamic law as Muhammed intended it, but in figuring out Islamic law as Muslims themselves define it, and how it would be implimented if they could get their poo together. I am not into telling people they don't understand their own religion.
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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Consan.
Reply #65 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 11:34am

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I am not into telling people they don't understand their own religion.

I am. I tell my husband this all the time and funnily enough, I haven't been beaten with a miswak yet.

You have a lot of misinformation in your Wiki. For a start, female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam, and in fact there are many scholars and Islamic leaders who have forbidden it.

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Ali Gomaa, the grand mufti of Al Azhar University, the highest body of jurisprudence in Sunni Islam, issued a fatwa - or religious edict - in late 2007, clearly denouncing FGM.

He emphasised that FGM is a sin and forbidden in Islam.

http://www.yemenpost.net/60/InternationalNews/20081.htm

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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #66 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 12:25pm

FD,

Quote:

My interest is not in establishing the 'real' Islamic law as Muhammed intended it, but in figuring out Islamic law as Muslims themselves define it

Quote:

For a start, female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam, and in fact there are many scholars and Islamic leaders who have forbidden it.

It seems you're interested in how Islam is defined by Muslims ourselves (ie. the opinion Annie posted above about circumcision) when it would fit into your wiki, otherwise you're interested in 'real' Islamic law as Muhammed intended it.. right?

Tends to switch and change depending on the propaganda value... doesn't it?

Can you comprehend now why people find you a little less than sincere on the issue of understanding Islam?

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freediver

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Re: Consan.
Reply #67 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 3:31pm

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I am. I tell my husband this all the time and funnily enough, I haven't been beaten with a miswak yet.

Think yourself lucky our laws protect you from Shariah law, because if they had their way, you would not be joking about this.

Quote:

You have a lot of misinformation in your Wiki. For a start, female circumcision has nothing to do with Islam, and in fact there are many scholars and Islamic leaders who have forbidden it.

Again, actual muslims contradict you. I'll give you a hint - it depends on how you define circumcision. Most of the ambiguity around Islam stems from different meanings attached to common words. The wiki does actually make the distinction between FGM and circumcision that Islam does, though admittedly not in the circumcision bit. You will be pleased to know that if someone gets the circumcision wrong and oversteps the chopping required by Islam, the punishment is (surprise surprise) death by stoning.

Quote:

It seems you're interested in how Islam is defined by Muslims ourselves (ie. the opinion Annie posted above about circumcision) when it would fit into your wiki, otherwise you're interested in 'real' Islamic law as Muhammed intended it.. right?

No Abu. Stop making silly excuses for not answering basic questions about Islam.

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Can you comprehend now why people find you a little less than sincere on the issue of understanding Islam?

Were you sincere when you said you welcomed 'open and frank' discussion of Islam?

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Consan.
Reply #68 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 5:42pm

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Think yourself lucky our laws protect you from Shariah law, because if they had their way, you would not be joking about this.

I'm absolutely certain that my husband would never lay a violent hand on me regardless of the system of law we live under or the provocation. And I don't have any faith in law (Australian, Shariah or otherwise) to protect me when it gets dirty.

Before I met my husband I was in a violent relationship. My neighbours called the police when he pulled our entertainment unit down on top of me. My ex screamed at the police to bugger off and they did - they actually left me lying there bleeding.

I was 16 at the time and even though he put me in hospital twice with head injuries, I was too scared to leave him until he stabbed me in the tummy then the back when I was crawling away. Even then I had to turn to people like him to protect me because from experience I knew nobody else would.

I realise it's incredible and I'm sure you probably won't believe me, but it's true.

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I'll give you a hint - it depends on how you define circumcision. Most of the ambiguity around Islam stems from different meanings attached to common words.

Anything that is not a medical procedure and involves a sharp instrument and a girl's genital area is mutilation.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #69 - Oct 9^th, 2010 at 5:46pm

fd don't think you're going to wiggle your way out of that one so easily.

When Annie said to you Islamic law is really like so, you retorted that: "My interest is not in establishing the 'real' Islamic law as Muhammed intended it, but in figuring out Islamic law as Muslims themselves define it", then when she brought you something which shows Muslims don't believe in or practice something in your wiki, and you come back saying you prefer what is in the Islamic texts, not what people themselves define it as.

You flip flop back and forwards depending on what's more convenient for your agenda.

You obviously have very little, if any, integrity left.

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freediver

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Re: Consan.
Reply #70 - Oct 10^th, 2010 at 8:52am

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Anything that is not a medical procedure and involves a sharp instrument and a girl's genital area is mutilation.

You should check the link on the wiki - it is to an interesting discussion here about FGM in Islam. Would you want this happening to your daughter?

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then when she brought you something which shows Muslims don't believe in or practice something in your wiki, and you come back saying you prefer what is in the Islamic texts

Again Abu, you should stick to what I actually say. Every time you let your imagination steer you, it takes you up the garden path. The bit on circumcision is based on what a Muslims posted right here on this board.

Would you be open and frank enough to give your own view on circumcision in Islam?

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freediver

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Re: Consan.
Reply #71 - Oct 10^th, 2010 at 8:59am

Here you go Annie - here is an example of Abu being open and frank:

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 20^th, 2008 at 9:40pm:

Quote:

The Ulema Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), says female circumcision is necessary for Muslims

If you actually did some proper research you'd find female circumcision is not the same as FGM, that's why they coined that acronym, to prevent confusion. Female circumcision as practised in Islam (which it's hardly even practised, those figures about Egypt are just ridiculous, perhaps amongst some tribal groups in the south) forbids the mutilation of the genital organs, and is just as safe and harmless as male circumcision.

Or at least close. Do you see now why he shys away from answering the difficult questions? It has nothing to do with me 'misrepresenting' what he says. His problem is that I present his own views more openly and frankly than he himself is willing to.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Consan.
Reply #72 - Oct 10^th, 2010 at 11:45am

freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2010 at 8:59am:

Here you go Annie - here is an example of Abu being open and frank:

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 20^th, 2008 at 9:40pm:

Quote:

The Ulema Council, Majelis Ulama Indonesia (MUI), says female circumcision is necessary for Muslims

If you actually did some proper research you'd find female circumcision is not the same as FGM, that's why they coined that acronym, to prevent confusion. Female circumcision as practised in Islam (which it's hardly even practised, those figures about Egypt are just ridiculous, perhaps amongst some tribal groups in the south) forbids the mutilation of the genital organs, and is just as safe and harmless as male circumcision.

Or at least close. Do you see now why he shys away from answering the difficult questions? It has nothing to do with me 'misrepresenting' what he says. His problem is that I present his own views more openly and frankly than he himself is willing to.

Abu is female circumcision in Islam a clitorectomy? Because if so, that's certainly not harmless. Can you show me a verse from the Quran or a Hadith where this is recommended?

FD, none of the women I know have been circumcised. If it was a common Islamic practice (and Abu says above it's not) then I'm sure it would have been mentioned when I had my own daughter, at which point I would have taken her and run a mile.

As your focus is not on what the religion actually says, but on how contemporary Muslims interpret and practice Islam, isn't FGM a moot point for you if the majority don't do it?

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Re: Consan.
Reply #73 - Oct 10^th, 2010 at 12:09pm

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FD, none of the women I know have been circumcised..... isn't FGM a moot point for you if the majority don't do it?

As Abu so points out so religiously, we do not live under Islamic law so the actions of Muslims are not a measure of Islamic law.

We do not stone gays to death. Does that mean it is a moot point to criticise someone who wants to introduce the practice?

Quote:

As your focus is not on what the religion actually says, but on how contemporary Muslims interpret and practice Islam

My focus is on what the religion actually says. It's just that I believe that Muslims themselves are the best judge of their own religion. Like I said, I am not into telling people they don't understand their own religion. After all, if Shariah law is ever implemented, it will be Muslims that do it, not 'the religion'.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #74 - Oct 10^th, 2010 at 12:20pm

Annie,

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Abu is female circumcision in Islam a clitorectomy?

No it is not, and I've mentioned this in quite a bit of detail to fd before, and have quoted for him the sole hadith which mentions it, in which the Prophet (saw) heard of a lady who did it, and he said it's ok to make a small incision in the hood above the vulva, but not to cut too much that it causes discomfort or loss of pleasure for them.

As usual though, he's not interested in such things, and merely wishes to blur the lines between that and FGM to score a few propaganda points.

Quote:

Can you show me a verse from the Quran or a Hadith where this is recommended?

No because there are none. Only a hadith, as I mentioned above, which says it's ok if it's not done excessively. Nowhere is it recommended.

So fd is skating on very thin ice with this one, since it's not a practise required or even encouraged in Islamic law, nor is it a widespread practise of Muslims themselves. Those who do practise it probably do so out of cultural traditions that predate Islam in their region (mostly in Africa).

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