Lisa Jones wrote on Oct 5^th, 2010 at 11:22am:


I know exactly what's going on. Allow me to put it to you that Abu is trying to lower morale in the Australian Way whilst simultaneously waging a propaganda campaign for Militant Islam so that, once brainwashed, we follow Abu is his diabolical campaign to establish the Global Caliphate and take over as leader of the world.

Abu, do you have anything to say?

"Alright, I'll admit it! But I would have got away with it if it wasn't for those miserable kids!"

Lisa,

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No real agenda, just pointing out that Aussie culture is pretty nasty on women, and it's outright hypocritical to then speak about Islam, when Islam promotes nothing but respect and honour for women.

Collingwood players celebrating their grand final win anyone??

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I think you're both playing with semantics on the courtship issue.


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Do you support every single aspect of democracy? You're condemning me for thinking critically about Islam and being able to point out the good as well as the bad. Whether you see it or not, Islam has a lot of beauty.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but there are many hadith that advocate the freeing of slaves and the religious rewards that doing so brings. Likewise with the Quran. One of the prophet's friends was an ex-slave called Bilal who was purchased and freed by the man who would later become the first caliph. If you're interested I can share the story here - it's beautiful.

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A woman has to consent to a marriage, FD. She can't be forced, but even if she could I've already made it clear that I think both forced marriages and rape in any form are wrong.

Incidentally, rape is punishable by death in Islam. As it should be. And yes, I could ask Abu about anything pertaining to Islam and I know he'd answer me with respect and sincerity because he knows I'm genuinely after information.


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Islam doesn't protect the rights of rapists, FD.


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I think that if the girls parents were practicing Islam properly this wouldn't be an issue. A woman in Islam should be sexually and mentally mature before marriage is permitted.


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And in order for you to make Islam and Muslims seem barbaric and backward, you must drag up and rehash the same points ad nauseam.

The Quran says that a woman is the equal of a man, that a husband must treat his wife with love and kindness. In one particularly strong hadith, Muhammad said "The best among you are those that are the best to their wives."

Old men marrying young girls isn't exclusive to Islam. There's nothing in our law stopping a 16yr old girl from marrying a 70yr old man. Is that disgusting and perverted? Yes. Do I like it? No. Will I shun democracy because it allows it to happen? Of course not.

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Well the Islamic concept of pre-marital encounters does not resemble what most non-Muslims would label courtship. The only permissible interaction between a man and woman prior to marriage, for the purposes of initiating marriage, is visits to the family house in the presence of the families, usually of both parties. I guess you could call it a courtship in a sense, but I doubt fd would accept it as such.

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There is only one aspect to democracy - the will of the majority. Yes I support it.

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Sorry, I must have missed that bit. I would be interested to see an example of you pointing out the bad.

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I believe we broached the issue of consent earlier. How much does the consent of a pre-pubescent girl mean?

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Unless it is of one of your brides or one of your slaves. Or a non-muslim, in which case it is effectively legal because Shariah courts discount the testimony of non-Muslims. Apparently they can't be trusted. And fellow Muslims are encouraged by islam to put a positive spin on anything a fellow Muslim does.

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Are you suggesting I am not genuinely after the information I seek? How do you know he would answer if you don't ask? How do you know he would give anything more than a BS deflection? It took me a long time to figure out some of the more subtle deceptions. Do you expect to somehow absord the reality of Islam by osmosis, even if you politely avoid the elephants in the room?

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Yes it does. It institutionalises rape. And not just in the home. There are many circumstances where Islam specifically permits or encourages rape, and even more where it makes a prosecution for rape almost impossible, despite it being technically illegal. How is that not protecting the rights of a rapist?

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I think it would be, because it is the proper rpactice of Islam that is the problem. If you disagree, please explain how the proper practice would magically fix all the problems.

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Are you saying Islam should be changed, or are you saying that a pre-pubescent girl is sexually and mentally mature?

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It doesn't just seem barbaric. It is barbaric. Which is why I bring them up. Would you suggest that if someone started promoting the legalisation of rape, I should politley mention it once then hold my tounge? Why is it somehow different if they blanket this barbarity in religion?

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Then the Koran contradicts itself, because it makes women slaves to men. If a woman has to ask her husband or whatever male is in charge of her for permission to leave the house, how is that a basis of equality?

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Ask Abu about the details of this love and kindness. It is not the love and kindness you would show to an equal. It is not even the love and kindness you would show a child. It commands men to love them in the same way a slave owner loves and protects his slaves.

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What about a pre-pubescent girl? Like I said, statute is not the be-all and end-all of child protection. There is far more to it in our society. On the other hand, Islamic society actively promotes such marriages in the absence of love.

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See fd, here is just one classic example of how warped and twisted your distorted view of Islam is.

You claim that I've said rape is permissible in Islam, yet I've said nothing but the complete opposite. Rape is severely punished, with heftier punishments than in the West.

You draw wild conclusions like "Because a wife must fulfill her husbands needs, therefore rape in marriage is permissible", this is just nonsense. Islam does not say a wife must fulfill her husbands needs, it says BOTH partners must fulfill eachothers needs, unless they have a genuine reason to abstain. Quite obviously to avoid people going to forbidden things like adultery. Does this mean Islam legitimises women raping their husbands?

This is why you honestly don't deserve to be given the time of day with your questions. Time and time again, you ask questions, then merely discard the answer given, and make up what you think the answer was supposed to have meant, and then make accusations against Islam based on this.

I will draw it a little though, if only to demonstrate to others how futile discussing these things with you is.

Abu, have you ever said on this forum that you support the 9/11 attacks?

I know a lot of Muslims don't believe that they were organised by Bin Laden, so that's not what I'm asking. I've been told that you said the attacks were warranted or deserved in some way and that doesn't fit with the little I know of you.

Abu:

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No Abu. I draw that conclusion because a Muslim told me it is permissable.

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So the wife is obligued after all? Can you clarify this please?

Annie:

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I do not see democracy as the be-all and end-all of civilised societies. I do not see it as perfect. I merely see it as the best available form of government.

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I have no doubt that he knows. I do doubt that he will tell.

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My understanding is that Islam permits the marriage of pre-pubescent girls, and the girl can be taken away to live with the husband, but they trust him not to have sex with her till she hits puberty. I don't think I have seen anything approach an open and frank discussion of this since Malik left.

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Not according to what I have been told - by Muslims. Sometimes they try to get around it by saying it is not rape because the man is permitted to have sex with the woman against her will, but it is specifically allowed in many circumstances. Ask Abu to list those circumstances.

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I know you have, but I hope you understand that I am going to take the word of a Muslim on this. If you want to follow this up, most of the claims on the wiki are backed up by links to explanations from Abu, Malik and a few others.

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I suspect you are confusing me asking for clarification of an ambiguity with disregarding the answer given. Surely you can see how an answer can be completely correct but not actually answer the question asked?

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So you don't think that stoning gays to death is evil?

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http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Islam_and_Australian_values

See the sections on Domestic violence, Women’s rights, War, Sex slaves, slavery. I should add a section on rape for clarity. Most of these should have links verifying them. I am not sure about some of them and have asked Abu to clarify them for me, but he refused.

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There have been a few famous cases of Muslim clerics making the same claim to the western media, then later preaching to their followers that no westerners/non-muslims are innocent.

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Again, muslims have contradicted you on this board. I have tried to get Abu to clarify some of these issues, but he refuses to.

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Again, actual Muslims openly contradict you.

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Tyranny is the only acceptable form of Islamic government.

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It is Shariah law that is the problem.

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He has spoken in their defence and refused to condemn them.

Abu:

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Does this mean I am right in my claim that Islam permits the marriage of pre-pubescent girls?

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Please Abu, don't put words in my mouth. That is not true.

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And therefor not innocent?