Australian Politics Forum - Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions

freediver

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Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Aug 10^th, 2010 at 1:34pm

I remember one federal election when there were a bunch of fishing parties spreading silly fear campaigns about marine parks everywhere, like on the GBR (apparently you were not going to be able to fish from any QLD beach up there). So they did a preference deal with the coalition in the Senate that gave the coalition control of both houses. Guess what they got for their efforts? The coalition enacted the new marine park network on the GBR - at the time the biggest in the world (now outdone in Hawaii I hear).

LOL.

Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/07/27/2965608.htm

The Federal Coalition has announced it would suspend Labor's marine protection process if it wins the election.

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott outlined his policy at Mackay's waterfront in central Queensland in the seat of Dawson.

Fishing industries in Queensland and the mid-north of New South Wales have been campaigning to ease proposed extensions to marine parks and bans on fishing.

Mr Abbott says he would start consultation with the fishing industry about sensible marine park boundaries.

"All of us want to see appropriate environmental protection, but man and nature have to live together and it's very important we don't do anything as a government that unreasonably threatens the livelihood of fishing industries and the tourism industries," he said.

Mr Abbott says the issue of marine parks is not one that often gets coverage in major metropolitan media.

"But certainly this is an issue which is deeply troubling regional Australia and it's deeply troubling a whole lot of people who enjoy fishing," he said.

While in Mackay Mr Abbott continued his campaign against the Government's mining tax.

The Opposition Leader brought one of his daughters along on a tour of a mining and engineering exhibition in the town.

He inspected a rock crusher and operated two model excavators.

He was expected to continue his attack on the proposed mining tax when he spoke at a mining conference later on Tuesday.

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pjb05

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #1 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 5:33pm

freediver wrote on Aug 10^th, 2010 at 1:34pm:

I remember one federal election when there were a bunch of fishing parties spreading silly fear campaigns about marine parks everywhere, like on the GBR (apparently you were not going to be able to fish from any QLD beach up there). So they did a preference deal with the coalition in the Senate that gave the coalition control of both houses. Guess what they got for their efforts? The coalition enacted the new marine park network on the GBR - at the time the biggest in the world (now outdone in Hawaii I hear).

LOL.

.
The senate doesn't work on a preferential voting system FD, and I doubt that fishing parties gave the coalition control of the lower house. As to your other inane suggestions, the GBRMP outcome was worse than the so called 'scare campaigns'.

All that is rather irrelvant now that a major party has come down against (to a large extent) marine parks. This torpedoes one of your main arguments, ie the 'bandwagon effect', so I don't know what your being so snide about.

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« Last Edit: Aug 10^th, 2010 at 6:19pm by pjb05 »

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freediver

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #2 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 5:45pm

Quote:

The senate doesn't work on a preferential voting system FD

Care to elaborate PJ?

Quote:

and I doubt that fishing parties gave the coalition control of the lower house

They boasted about giving them control of the senate and how it meant they would finally get listened too.

Quote:

This torpedoes one of your main arguements, ie the 'bandwagon effect'

Sounds like a strawman to me.

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pjb05

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #3 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 6:30pm

] Quote:

The senate doesn't work on a preferential voting system FD

Care to elaborate PJ?

Actually it does now that I think of it - but is quite complicated. In any case the Coalition did not go to the election with the GBRMP expansion as being their policy. Are you blaming the fishing parties for not having a crystal ball?

Quote:

and I doubt that fishing parties gave the coalition control of the lower house

They boasted about giving them control of the senate and how it meant they would finally get listened too.

It looks like they are being listened to now! PS: polling in coastal seats shows tha Abott's marine park policy was well received.

Quote:

This torpedoes one of your main arguements, ie the 'bandwagon effect'

Sounds like a strawman to me.

It was one of your arguments that there is a politcal as well as scientific consensus against marine parks.

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freediver

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #4 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 6:42pm

Quote:

Are you blaming the fishing parties for not having a crystal ball?

Just for being naive.

Quote:

It looks like they are being listened to now!

You mean now that they barely exist any more? Or now that the coalition feels satisfied they have created enough marine parks to last a few terms?

Quote:

It was one of your arguments that there is a politcal as well as scientific consensus against marine parks.

There is. Abbott supports marine parks. He is not going to remove any of them. Nor has he ruled out more after the next election. This is the sort of naivete that made the fishing parties look like schoolkids. They will clutch at any old straw for political vindication.

My only argument about the political consesnus was that it forces fishermen to face the reality of marine parks. That is, even if they don't support them, fishermen should at least play a constructive role in their implimentation.

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pjb05

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #5 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 7:08pm

] Quote:

Are you blaming the fishing parties for not having a crystal ball?

Just for being naive.

There was no way of predicting what happened regarding the GBR.

Quote:

It looks like they are being listened to now!

You mean now that they barely exist any more? Or now that the coalition feels satisfied they have created enough marine parks to last a few terms?

Duh, I mean fishermen and small business owners in coastal towns. PS what marine parks have the coalition created outside the GBR?

Quote:

It was one of your arguments that there is a politcal as well as scientific consensus against marine parks.

There is. Abbott supports marine parks. He is not going to remove any of them. Nor has he ruled out more after the next election. This is the sort of naivete that made the fishing parties look like schoolkids. They will clutch at any old straw for political vindication.

Sophist nonsense. Hardly anyone is against marine parks in principle - even I am not. It's the extent, nature and motives where the differences lie. The coalition promises to halt the planning process for any more marine parks, which is a major departure from the present policy. What happens to existing marine parks we will just have to see, but there are very few of these in any case.

My only argument about the political consesnus was that it forces fishermen to face the reality of marine parks. That is, even if they don't support them, fishermen should at least play a constructive role in their implimentation. [/quote]

Which is an appeal to a bandwagon and a propaganda technique.

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freediver

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #6 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:14pm

Quote:

There was no way of predicting what happened regarding the GBR.

True. The exact manner in which people like that get screwed is always hard to forsee, and the spectacular extent of it took even me by surprise. Yet they still had naive branded across their forheads.

Quote:

Sophist nonsense. Hardly anyone is against marine parks in principle - even I am not.

So you agree there is a consensus?

Quote:

What happens to existing marine parks we will just have to see

LOL. What do you really expect? Be honest now.

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pjb05

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #7 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 8:48pm

] Quote:

There was no way of predicting what happened regarding the GBR.

True. The exact manner in which people like that get screwed is always hard to forsee, and the spectacular extent of it took even me by surprise. Yet they still had naive branded across their forheads.

So we were screwed! I thought you said marine parks were good for us and are the ideal fisheries management tool? Also you are more than a bit naive to think that the political conditions that applied then also apply now.

Quote:

Sophist nonsense. Hardly anyone is against marine parks in principle - even I am not.

So you agree there is a consensus?

No, because there is considerable divergence on the extent to which marine parks are needed and to their effectiveness.

Quote:

What happens to existing marine parks we will just have to see

LOL. What do you really expect? Be honest now. [/quote]

Well given you have just said that fishermen were screwed over by the GBRMPA there is certainly plenty of room for improvement. PS the NSW coalition promised to abolish 2 marine parks and review the zoning of the remaining ones.

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freediver

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #8 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 9:07pm

Quote:

So we were screwed! I thought you said marine parks were good for us and are the ideal fisheries management tool?

Sure they are, which is why those who oppose marine parks and spread their legs for any politician who will throw them a few platitudes is going to get screwed.

Quote:

PS the NSW coalition promised to abolish 2 marine parks and review the zoning of the remaining ones.

So you keep saying. Would you mind posting these claims? All I have seen is a vague promise to 'look into it'.

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pjb05

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #9 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 9:16pm

[] Quote:

So we were screwed! I thought you said marine parks were good for us and are the ideal fisheries management tool?

Sure they are, which is why those who oppose marine parks and spread their legs for any politician who will throw them a few platitudes is going to get screwed.

At the time the Howard government was desperate to get the GST passed. The Democrats had the balance of power and decided to support it - for a price. Part of the deal was the GBRMP. It's ridiculous to say this will political situation in perpetuity.

PS: Is this your line of argument now? Ie a political (and rather Lenininstic one), after you made a fool of yourself over Reefgate?

Quote:

PS the NSW coalition promised to abolish 2 marine parks and review the zoning of the remaining ones.

So you keep saying. Would you mind posting these claims? All I have seen is a vague promise to 'look into it'. [/quote]

That was the last election so it's rather old news now. Though it seems that marine parks are even more central to their campaign this time around. I can keep you posted if you like.

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« Last Edit: Aug 10^th, 2010 at 9:24pm by pjb05 »

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freediver

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #10 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 9:24pm

Quote:

It's ridiculous to say this will political situation in perpetuity.

Right, they will have to think of another excuse next time. It made me cringe how these people tried to absolve the coalition of any responsibility, like a rape victim speaking out in defence of the rapist "it's OK, it was convenient for him to do that to me at the time, I'm sure he won't feel the same need again..."

Quote:

That was the last election so it's rather old news now. Though it seems that marine parks are even more central to their campaign this time around. I can keep you posted if you like.

Still, I'd like to see the evidence. Not 'keep me posted'. Or was this more crystal ball stuff? Where is the promise to abolish 2 marine parks? Is this just more schoolboy naivete from the anti marine park lobby?

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pjb05

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #11 - Aug 10^th, 2010 at 9:32pm

] Quote:

It's ridiculous to say this will political situation in perpetuity.

Right, they will have to think of another excuse next time. It made me cringe how these people tried to absolve the coalition of any responsibility, like a rape victim speaking out in defence of the rapist "it's OK, it was convenient for him to do that to me at the time, I'm sure he won't feel the same need again..."

Well this time they have promised to at least halt the planning process for marine parks. In the case of Labor we know the planning is well underway and in the case of the Greens that want 30% of Aust waters NTZ.

Quote:

That was the last election so it's rather old news now. Though it seems that marine parks are even more central to their campaign this time around. I can keep you posted if you like.

Still, I'd like to see the evidence. Not 'keep me posted'. Or was this more crystal ball stuff? Where is the promise to abolish 2 marine parks? Is this just more schoolboy naivete from the anti marine park lobby? [/quote]

Firstly I'm turning in and I am not about to dig it up for you now. Secondly the coaltion lost the last election so any promises made before are of limited relevence compared to current/ slash future ones.

PS I modified my last post so you might have missed this:

PS: Is this your line of argument now? Ie a political (and rather Lenininstic one), after you made a fool of yourself over Reefgate?

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freediver

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #12 - Aug 11^th, 2010 at 7:58am

I didn't make a fool of myself PJ. As I recall it was rather tedious, but I finally managed to convince you that something they apparently failed to mention was in fact on the front page of their paper and it was intended to highlight the institution they worked for, not just their mailing address. But don't let that distract you. Let's see this 'promise'.

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pjb05

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Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions
Reply #13 - Aug 11^th, 2010 at 8:14pm

freediver wrote on Aug 11^th, 2010 at 7:58am:

I didn't make a fool of myself PJ. As I recall it was rather tedious, but I finally managed to convince you that something they apparently failed to mention was in fact on the front page of their paper and it was intended to highlight the institution they worked for, not just their mailing address. But don't let that distract you. Let's see this 'promise'.

You assume too much. You didn't convince me. The front page didn't say they worked for the GBRMPA, merely they authored one paper. You also keep omiting the overt declaration of no conflict of interest or no mention of 3 of the 4 Pew connections.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 47364 At my desk.	Re: Abbott pledges end to marine park expansions Reply #14 - Aug 11^th, 2010 at 8:20pm Quote: PS the NSW coalition promised to abolish 2 marine parks and review the zoning of the remaining ones. Tell me more about this please PJ. I would hate for people to think you were a naive sucker getting screwed by the coalition once again.
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