In my opinion, this issue should be governed by the interests of justice, not knee-jerk reactions to the burqa.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/national/burqa-muslim-defendant-anwar-sayed-attacked-near-lawyers-office/story-e6frf7l6-1225902181565

The Prime Minister this morning commented on the case, saying woman giving evidence in court should be forced to remove face-covering burqas.

Earlier this week, Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said he found the burka "a particularly confronting form of attire".

Ms Gillard said she thought it was one of the "limited" instances when it should be removed.

"I worked as a lawyer for eight years, I ran a lot of cases, I interviewed a lot of clients, having done that it can be very difficult to tell whether or not people are telling you the truth," she said.

"The essence of giving witness evidence is the court is making a determination over whether or not someone is telling the truth, that is always hard to do, I think it would be impossible to do if you couldn't see someone's face."

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2010 at 10:43am:


I would agree with that position. one of a very small number of situations where a covered face in inappropriate.

freediver wrote on Aug 7^th, 2010 at 10:43am:


Bit of a worry - confronting? I would rate it about the same as people who do not know which way a cap goes.

"confronting"

Deos this say more about Mr Abbott than the way people choose to dress?
.

BlOoDy RiPpEr wrote on Aug 7^th, 2010 at 11:08am:



Are you sure about that?

Quote:


That doesn't make sense. Whether it is a religious requirement is irrelevent.

Abu has made the same claim.

freediver wrote on Aug 12^th, 2010 at 7:34pm:

Who is 'Abu'?
And if he made the same claim as I, he's right.

Saifudeen wrote on Aug 12^th, 2010 at 7:59pm:


As far as I can tell you asked a question but made no claim.

Abu runs our Islam board. He is apparently a Muslim, but doesn't like to asnwer questions about Islam (any more) in case we use his answers against him.

Sorry I thought you were making a more substantial point than "I know better than you".

You'll have to ask Abu to explain it to you. It doesn't make much sense to me either.

No, I'm not.
That's why I'd never say the Burqa is or isn't a religious requirement myself and will take such FROM a religious SCHOLAR only!!

Also, here I was thinking we were in a nation that respects a woman's right to wear what she chooses...Oops, my bad! I forgot, it's only so long as she chooses certain garb.

I'm all for women's rights and have spoken out for the right of women to go nude or wear a burqa, whatever they want. But in a court of law the interests of justice take precedence. That's why you can be subpoenad.

Saifudeen wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 11:50am:



Do you also think that women have the right to wear anything they choose when visiting your mosque?

Soren wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 12:41pm:

Women choose to go to the Mosque or not.
There's a difference here, and that is the court of law is not the Mosque.

Pat Condell says it all here .........

Saifudeen wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 1:07pm:



Turn that around, will ya: a court of law is not a mosque, or a shopping centre or the street or the beach or any place where your imam's or religious scholar's ruling hold any water. That's the point, by the way - a court of law in Australia IS a secular place. Even for Mohammedans.

For a person to swear an oath on a holy book, it's considered  to be a better oath, than just affirming.

You do have a choice

cockneydoll wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 8:11pm:


When I took to the witness stand, I was not actually given any choice. After the Holy Bible was thrust at me, I had to assert myself to decline - because I would be lying and therefore in Contempt of the Court to take any oath that I do not believe in. Only then was I given the option of affirming...

So, I wonder how many atheist witnesses are too shy, embarrassed and/or fearful of the Court, to admit they do not believe and end up swearing a dishonest oath rather than rejecting the default process!?

Oh, and does anyone know whether Aussie Courts have a stock of non-Xtian books of worship on hand!?

Soren wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 8:32pm:


LOL, Princess JC...believe it or not, after posting that I was in transit - bringing my son home from his dance classes, which are about 30km from home...

Oh, and we stopped off on the way back, to feed the gas guzzler...

You are lying.  I am a JP and I worked within the court system and you are ALWAYS given the choice of swearing or affirming.

Newcastle! Well, it is *Newcastle* isn't it.

Soren wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 10:06pm:


Nope, Princess - you are misinterpreting the law!

I'm not sure whether you lack the capacity to interpret it - and/or you are predisposed to reading something into those words that is not expressly stated...

That said, I reiterate that: when I was called to give evidence, I was not given a choice - the Bible was simply thrust at me, whereupon I informed His Honour that I am not religious and therefore that I could not swear an oath upon the Bible...

It was only after I declined to swear on the Bible, that had been thrust at me, that I was offered the Affirmation alternative...

Soren wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 10:53pm:


FFS, Princess...this started with your assertion that: - Quote:


In response, I made a comment confirming that:

Quote:


I reiterate that felt that I would be in Contempt because I would effectively be lying in the face of the Court if I was to swear an Oath on a Bible...

Equitist wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 7:28pm:

if you don't like it, don't let them in here.
simple.
arabs are a blight on oz society. period.
the only good thing they got is hash and that's illegal here.
j.

cockneydoll wrote on Aug 13^th, 2010 at 8:52pm:


You're right, and in Queensland it's exactly the same. I'm a JP in Qld. Swearing and affirmation are both considered equivalent here.


Quote:


How long ago was that? The Oaths Act changed in most States around 15 years ago.

cockney Quote:


sounds like islam all over, as detailed by hte sex addict moh himself

if the kids are boys, they'll grow upto be masoginists , if they are girls, they grow up to be submissive nothings.

a totally abhorrant unspiritual belief system

cockneydoll wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 2:49pm:


What about the role of the voice? By your logic it should be illegal for women to remain silent.

Cockney are you really suggesting we use Islamic courts as a standard for our own system?

You posted this:

Quote:


Can you explain how it is relevant to our justice system?

cockneydoll wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 4:51pm:

[/quote]

How is it subjugation? If the woman chooses to wear the burqa, what does it matter? Too many people look at a woman with a burqa and think 'Well, she was obviously forced to wear it by her husband' when this is simply not true.

If she chooses to wear it, what right do we have to tell her she can't?

Vanessa wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 6:47pm:




Face.

I am not struggling with common law. I am struggling with the relevance of Islamic law to our legal system. Why should it matter to us what happens in Islamic courts? Why should it affect our decision?

Antagonistic? I am asking you to explain, that is all. How is that antagonistic? Because you can't explain?

Read what?

Is it always this difficult to ask you a simple question?

Vanessa, FD and other jokers:

what is the basis/foundation of whatever belief or value system you have you have?

How is the value system that manifests itself in a burqa not totally opposed to yours?

Wher does it say in your belief system that you must support and encourage and upjold anything that is in opposition to your own belief system?

burqas?
who cares.
it's the ppl and their system that is NOT WELCOME HERE.
j.

djrbfm wrote on Aug 14^th, 2010 at 10:03pm:


So you'd like us to close the doors on any Muslim who wishes to emigrate, right?

Because all Muslims are obviously all terrorists, and obviously out to hurt us.

Leaving Islam
Here are stories of people who have become disillusioned with Islam and have left it. Naturally their ID has been kept in secret and in some cases they have changed their names.  This is necessary to protect them from becoming the target of Islamic persecution. The penalty of apostasy in Islam is death. Here is the testimony of the site owner. 


[url]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/testimonials.htm

[/url]


Another for you

Islam Watch

http://islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=55

Dont believe everything you see or hear on the net 

adelcrow wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 5:19pm:


Correction:

"Don't believe most you see or hear on the net "

This just proves that we do have problems with muslims intergrating here in western based societies like australia, and this situation just highlights why there is such a problem that these Islamopoligist like to deny.

Thats what people like Ayaan Hirsi ali, that somali feminist activist warned the world about.

aussie - true.

democracy and islam is incompatible.
freedom of speech and islam is imcompatible

vanessa - islam is also a political system.
and a martial system
and a sexist system.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 8:12pm:

Thank you...........she didn't bother with anything I posted

Islam is an all encompassing way of life not just a religion

It's not taken anti Islamic web sites

If you decide to leave any other religion, do you seriously think you will be in fear for your life ?

That's the reason ex-Muslims set up sites to help people. Most even change their name for fear of retribution

I have this information from reinds who left Islam

If you are thinking of leaving Islam, be wary, be careful. Do not tell your Muslim friends or family. The Qur'an commands your death for leaving Islam (4:89 calls for the murder of renegades from the faith), and Muhammad is explicit in a hadith: "If anyone changes his religion, kill him" (Bukhari). Many, many 'honor killings' have been committed for "crimes" that are in Islamic law considered far less serious than leaving Islam.

Think you're safe in America? Rifqa Bary has been threatened numerous times for leaving Islam. Rashad Khalifa was murdered by Islamic supremacists in Arizona in the early 1990s -- because of his "heretical" teachings. If you doubt that you're in danger in America, be aware that apostates have been threatened or murdered in recent years in Afghanistan, Egypt, Pakistan, Somalia and elsewhere. It doesn't matter how free or open your country's society is: the law of Islam recognizes no national borders.

If you fear for your life, contact info@avoiceforthepersecuted.com. If you are unsure of how your family or community will respond to your admitting that you're leaving, don't take chances. Write to Pamela Geller at writeatlas@aol.com or Robert Spencer at director@jihadwatch.org. If you need immediate protection from a threat, call the police immediately.

Start here -- these are your best resources for Muslims who have made the journey. They can help you.

Contact Nonie at Former Muslims United

Apostates of Islam

Speak to Ali at  Faith Freedom org

Answering Muslims

Muslims Against Sharia

[url][/url]

Vanessa wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 8:18pm:



Here's a thought experiment for you: list the most important values you hold dear in your own life. Check them against islamic doctrine and see how you would fare upholding them under an Islamist regime.

Soren wrote on Aug 15^th, 2010 at 8:53pm:



Here's a man Father Zakaria Botros, who has a price of $60 million on his head for darin gto speak out againt Islam

Father Zakaria Botros: Threatened into Silence

The renowned Coptic Christian priest Father Zakaria Botros was scheduled to speak in Vienna tonight, but the atmosphere created by Muslim threats was such the event had to cancelled.

Below is the press release sent out by the Wiener Akademikerbund concerning this unfortunate turn of events. Many thanks to JLH for the translation:

    Concerning: Cancellation of Presentation by Pater Zakaria

    Dear Friends!

    Father Zakaria BotrosLast week, with the greatest joy and in expectation of a courageous confrontation of the problems surrounding Islam, the promises of multiculturalism and diversity as well as the erosion of our value system, we invited you to a lecture/presentation with the Coptic scholar. Islam researcher and charismatic Christian missionary, Father Zakaria Botros.

    After meticulous preparation and with Father Zakaria anticipating his first public appearance in Europe, it is with a heavy heart that we must cancel the event, which was scheduled for Thursday, May 6, 2010 at 7:00 PM.

    For reasons of numerous Islamic threats of violence and intolerable pressure upon our oriental Christian friends, insistence upon holding the event would be not only risky, but absolutely irresponsible.

    We are saddened to discover that — in an allegedly free country such as Austria, and despite precautions taken by the authorities in a serious and professional manner — it is no longer possible to pursue critical clarity and tell the truth.

vanessa - well done on avoiding the question.
I assume you are wrong, if you avoid the question.

You would be a alp voter, would yoou ??

vanessa - do not think islam is "just another belief."
islam IS very different to any other belief, in many ways.

it's extremism is the point of the belief. it's sexist stance is unique.
it is the only belief that encourages murder for those that leave it.
it's inventer was a sex addict who was a mass murderer.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 3:13pm:


99.99% of Muslims are NOT extremists. FFS, you have extremists in every religion. Islam is no exception.

You call Islam sexist? Ha! Do the churches here allow women to be priests? No, they don't. The churches here are just as sexist, because religions have ALWAYS been sexist and demeaning toward women.

Tell you what Vanessa...if you live in Sydney, I dare to you walk around in the Rockdale. Brighton area, not especially scantily dressd but nicely dressed and see what happens to you.

You will be heckled, spat on, called a whore, infidel and more.

Female kafirs in the area cannot walk around unescorted for fear of attack

Vanessa wrote on Aug 16^th, 2010 at 8:01pm:


This is the stupidest kind of equivocation and not surprisingly lots of people mistake it for an argumnt.

SOME churches not ordaining women in the west makes it OK for Islam to decree for all time that a woman is worth half a man and spanking her ios god's will.  One form of stupidity (by no means unchanging and unacknowledged) excuses another, much worse and unchangable form.
FFS.

I am ashamed to be Australian, knowing that so many of my fellow Aussies are pathetic bigots. I have done a lot of reading on Islam, for your information. I have a copy of the Quran here at home and I have read it cover to cover.

There is nothing in the Quran that isn't in the Bible. Nothing at all.

Vanessa wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 1:36pm:




Well, if you're ashamed to be Australian, maybe you'd be happier in Saudi Arabia? 
There are a lot of popular movements and ideologies that I don't agree with at all, but I realise not everyone thinks the same as i do.  It'd do you well to come to terms with this fact also...lest your bigotry reveal itself.

Vanessa, far be it from me to call you a liar, but if as you say, you have read the Qu'uran from 'cover to cover', then you wouldn't be taking the road you are.

This is what Islam is about. I am postin gthis whole circular fro those who wish to support the cause of this poor woman

Join 28 August action of 100 cities against stoning

Hello

Thanks so much for your support of the campaign to save Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani from death by stoning and execution. The public outcry is what has kept her alive so far. When her 22 year old son Sajjad first wrote an open letter asking people everywhere to intervene there was no legal recourse left and she was to face imminent death by stoning for ‘adultery.’

In another letter written a few days ago, Sajjad reiterates Ashtiani’s innocence and says:
‘What sort of justice is this?’ (http://iransolidarity.blogspot.com/2010/08/sakineh-ashtianis-son-do-not-let-her-...).

The Islamic regime in Iran is doing everything it can to kill Ashtiani and push back the international campaign. The regime has harassed her children and put pressure on Ashtiani, most recently, forcing her to ‘confess’ on Iranian state television to having murdered her husband and committed adultery. [You can see the footage on Iranian State TV in Persian here, which also criticises the International Sakineh Day we had organised: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Kfk06izqI&feature=related.]

As her other lawyer Houtan Kian has said she was tortured into making the false ‘confession.’ He has recently provided detailed and new information on her case: http://iransolidarity.blogspot.com/2010/08/new-documents-from-tabriz-and-tehran..... This follows evidence provided at the 30 July press conference in London by Mina Ahadi of the International Committees against Execution and Stoning which revealed actual court documents showing Ashtiani’s sentence to death by stoning for adultery.

The regime had also arrested the wife, brother-in-law and father-in-law of her human rights lawyer, Mohammad Mostafaei. They were subsequently released whilst Mostafaei was forced to flee the country in order to evade arrest. [He is now safe in Norway.]

They have even handed over her case for ‘review’ to deputy prosecutor-general Saeed Mortazavi, known as the butcher and torturer of Tehran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saeed_Mortazavi).



On 28 August 2010 – come out in 100 cities against stoning to show that the regime cannot to anything it wants to women. You can find out more about the events taking place on 28 August below and on how to organise your own event.

Join us! This must be the beginning of the end of stonings in the 21st century. And it must save Ashtiani’s precious life and reunite her with her beloved children.

Warmest wishes

Maryam

Maryam Namazie
Iran Solidarity Spokesperson
iransolidaritynow@gmail.com
0044 7719166731
www.iransolidarity.org.uk
http://iransolidarity.blogspot.com/

PLEASE ACT NOW!

1- Join a 100 cities against Stoning on 28 August 2010: http://stopstonningnow.com/wpress/2249. You can find out about events taking place in a city near you on this list.

2- Find out more about how to organise your own event here: http://iransolidarity.blogspot.com/2010/08/how-to-plan-action-day-to-save-sakinehs.html

3- Join a forum for organisers of events and to raise questions and make comments: http://stopstonningnow.com/100cities/

4- Send Sakineh a postcard of the city you live in or are visiting this summer telling her you are thinking of her and other prisoners on death row in Tabriz prison. You can address it to:
Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani
Tabriz Prison
Tabriz, Iran
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&q=tabriz+prison&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=prison&hnear=Tabriz,+Iran&view=map&cid=5511433647417998115&iwloc=A&ved=0CBcQpQY&sa=X&ei=kRVbTK2HKJOe_gaemtzoBA

5- Write letters of protest to the Islamic regime of Iran demanding Ashtiani’s release and an end to stonings and executions. Protest letters can be addressed to the below:

Head of the Judiciary
Sadeqh Larijani
Howzeh Riyasat-e Qoveh Qazaiyeh (Office of the Head of the Judiciary)
Pasteur St., Vali Asr Ave., south of Serah-e Jomhouri
Tehran 1316814737, Iran
Email: info@dadiran.ir or via website: http://www.dadiran.ir/tabid/75/Default.aspx
First starred box: your given name; second starred box: your family name; third: your email address

Head of the Judiciary in East Azerbaijan Province
Malek-Ashtar Sharifi
Office of the Head of the Judiciary in Tabriz
East Azerbaijan, Iran

Sayed ‘Ali Khamenei
The Office of the Supreme Leader
Islamic Republic Street - Shahid Keshvar Doust Street
Tehran, Iran
Email: via website: http://www.leader.ir/langs/en/index.php?p=letter (English)
http://www.leader.ir/langs/fa/index.php?p=letter (Persian)

Secretary General, High Council for Human Rights
Mohammad Javad Larijani
Howzeh Riassat-e Ghoveh Ghazaiyeh
Pasteur St, Vali Asr Ave., south of Serah-e Jomhuri
Tehran 1316814737, Iran
Fax: +98 21 3390 4986
Email: bia.judi@yahoo.com

6- Sign petitions in support of her case if you haven’t already done so. Here are two of them: http://stopstonningnow.com/sakine/sakin284.php?nr=50326944&lang=en, http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_stoning/?cl=651962225&v=6766.

7- Write to government officials, heads of state, MEPs and MPs in your country of resi

vanessas prob just a muslim pretending to be an open minded  modern leftwit.

noone could be as stupid as what she has said

cockneydoll wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 2:54pm:


Would you like to me to paste some excerpts from the Bible for you to see?

Like to see how it's okay to have sex with your father after you've gotten him drunk?

How about knowing that if you get raped, your rapist must marry you?

Or if you are gay, you will be stoned to death? Got long hair, lets kill you too.

Want to see how it's okay to murder thousands of people simply because you don't like them?

Yeah, that's Christianity for you.

And lets not forget the Salem witch trials. Christians, burning alive women and children.

Don't heap poo on one religion and ignore other religions.

How ignorant can you be.

Vanessa wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:07pm:


Would you like to me to paste some excerpts from the Bible for you to see?

Like to see how it's okay to have sex with your father after you've gotten him drunk?


How about knowing that if you get raped, your rapist must marry you?
REALLY? WHERE ?

Or if you are gay, you will be stoned to death? Got long hair, lets kill you too.

[highlight]VANESSA YOU ARE A TWIT

[/highlight]

Want to see how it's okay to murder thousands of people simply because you don't like them?

REALLY??

Yeah, that's Christianity for you.

ROT and I'm not a Christian

And lets not forget the Salem witch trials. Christians, burning alive women and children.

300 YEARS AGO........we have PROGRESSED, ISLAM IS STILL LIVING IN THE DARK AGES

The husband can kill his wife by claiming she wasn't a virgin:

If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they were married. If her father can't produce the "tokens of her virginity" (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep. 22:13-21

If a virgin is raped and doesn't cry out loud enough, stone her to death!

If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." 22:23-24

Have sex with your daddy!

19:32  Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

Marry your rapist!

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)


If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Can't cut your hair or we'll stone you!!

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)


You were saying, Cockney?

cockneydoll wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:33pm:


We don't have Sharia law in Australia so I don't know what you are complaining about.

Vanessa wrote on Aug 17^th, 2010 at 4:35pm:


How about dark ages attitudes and beliefs for starters?