Australian Politics Forum - Liberal Democratic Party

BobH

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #105 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:16pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:07pm:

Do you remember the context of the gun ban? Im not going to remind you, but you need to realise that without context, even a fact can be used dishonestly. the gun ban has broad community support which in a democracy is a killer argument.

I think the context shows that Howard's gun laws were totally irrational and spur-of-the-moment. The push for stricter gun control was an emotional reaction to a terrible tragedy. There was not a lot of time taken to assess the situation and the effects of gun control. There should have been real debate on whether gun control would have stopped Port Arthur because I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that oldmate (forget his name) didn't own that gun legally. The gun he used was illegal. I think it proves gun laws are irrelevant to a trigger-happy maniac.

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longweekend58

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #106 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:19pm

BigOl64 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:15pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:07pm:

[quote author=bigol64 link=1280635255/90#98 date=1280721837][quote author=longweekend58 link=1280635255/75#87 date=1280721077][quote author=bigol64 link=1280635255/75#85 date=1280720828][quote author=longweekend58 link=1280635255/75#82 date=1280720593][quote author=bobhunterLDP link=1280635255/75#77 date=1280720275][quote author=longweekend58 link=1280635255/60#74 date=1280719963]

Do you remember the context of the gun ban? Im not going to remind you, but you need to realise that without context, even a fact can be used dishonestly. the gun ban has broad community support which in a democracy is a killer argument.

I do recall that QLD wasn't too keen on it until the feds threatened to block supply to our state.

I do recall it was an opportunistic reaction immediately after the worst mass murder in Australian history, of course a shocked nation was looking for answers and retribution.

But what has it achieved?

Do crims still have unfettered access to firearms?

Do crims still kill at will?

What was it's purpose? If it was to disarm law abiding citizens or to grandstand for political gain, mission ackomplished.

thats a bit conspiracy-theorist-ish of you. australians as a significant majority declared that they didnt want guns in the hands of people who dont have a legitimate need for them. yes, that upset people as do a lot of other laws but that is how democracy works sometimes. there is NO need for a gun for self-defence as it is not that kind of soceity that we have here. When there is an actual need then Id change my mind but the risks far outweigh any perceived benefits.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #107 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:22pm

BobH wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:16pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:07pm:

Do you remember the context of the gun ban? Im not going to remind you, but you need to realise that without context, even a fact can be used dishonestly. the gun ban has broad community support which in a democracy is a killer argument.

I think the context shows that Howard's gun laws were totally irrational and spur-of-the-moment. The push for stricter gun control was an emotional reaction to a terrible tragedy. There was not a lot of time taken to assess the situation and the effects of gun control. There should have been real debate on whether gun control would have stopped Port Arthur because I believe, though I'm not 100% sure, that oldmate (forget his name) didn't own that gun legally. The gun he used was illegal. I think it proves gun laws are irrelevant to a trigger-happy maniac.

and ALLOWING 'trigger-happy maniacs' to own a gun is a solution? we cant eliminate guns but we can reduce them. we cant stop ALL criminals or lunatics from having guns but we can stop MOST. and that is the argument. who in suburban australia NEEDS a gun (outside his gun club)? can you articulate an answer to that one?

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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BigOl64

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #108 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:31pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:19pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:15pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:07pm:

[quote author=bigol64 link=1280635255/90#98 date=1280721837][quote author=longweekend58 link=1280635255/75#87 date=1280721077][quote author=bigol64 link=1280635255/75#85 date=1280720828][quote author=longweekend58 link=1280635255/75#82 date=1280720593][quote author=bobhunterLDP link=1280635255/75#77 date=1280720275][quote author=longweekend58 link=1280635255/60#74 date=1280719963]

Do you remember the context of the gun ban? Im not going to remind you, but you need to realise that without context, even a fact can be used dishonestly. the gun ban has broad community support which in a democracy is a killer argument.

I do recall that QLD wasn't too keen on it until the feds threatened to block supply to our state.

I do recall it was an opportunistic reaction immediately after the worst mass murder in Australian history, of course a shocked nation was looking for answers and retribution.

But what has it achieved?

Do crims still have unfettered access to firearms?

Do crims still kill at will?

What was it's purpose? If it was to disarm law abiding citizens or to grandstand for political gain, mission ackomplished.

thats a bit conspiracy-theorist-ish of you. australians as a significant majority declared that they didnt want guns in the hands of people who dont have a legitimate need for them. yes, that upset people as do a lot of other laws but that is how democracy works sometimes. there is NO need for a gun for self-defence as it is not that kind of soceity that we have here. When there is an actual need then Id change my mind but the risks far outweigh any perceived benefits.

Looks like you have my and Bob's replies back to front

I would like to try and answer my questions, if you can.

If crims still have unfettered access to guns and can still use them at will, what are the benefits again?

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BobH Moderator Offline Posts: 174	Re: Liberal Democratic Party Reply #109 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:33pm Looks like the last few posts are bit of a mess of quotations. I'd suggest not quoting that big long mess of quotes anymore. Time to start the quote collection fresh I think.
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BigOl64

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #110 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:38pm

and ALLOWING 'trigger-happy maniacs' to own a gun is a solution?

Remember what I said about trying a valid and rational argument.

This is the same emotive & irrational argument that howard used immediatly after port arthur to introduce the gun laws.

Grandstanding on dead bodies and using politcal opportunism to implement his own prejudice ideology.

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skippy. Gold Member Offline Posts: 20882 Gender:	Re: Liberal Democratic Party Reply #111 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 3:16pm You didn't answer me yesterday bob, are you preferencing Lib/Nationals?if not, which parties are you preferencing to get into the senate?
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BobH Moderator Offline Posts: 174	Re: Liberal Democratic Party Reply #112 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 3:50pm skippy. wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 3:16pm: You didn't answer me yesterday bob, are you preferencing Lib/Nationals?if not, which parties are you preferencing to get into the senate? http://www.aec.gov.au/election/downloads.htm#gvt
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skippy.

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #113 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 3:58pm

Cant you just tell us bob?
http://www.aec.gov.au/election/downloads.htm#gvt

Can you see the little blue box at the top of the page when you make a post? if you want to post a link click on that and insert it.

There I've done it for you, now instead of me trawling through the aec website can you tell us who you are doing preference deals with?

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freedivers other forum- POLITICAL ANIMAL
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Team Froggie

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #114 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:07pm

skippy. wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 3:58pm:

Cant you just tell us bob?
http://www.aec.gov.au/election/downloads.htm#gvt

Can you see the little blue box at the top of the page when you make a post? if you want to post a link click on that and insert it.

There I've done it for you, now instead of me trawling through the aec website can you tell us who you are doing preference deals with?

I'm interested as well, Bob.

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"What's in store for me in the direction I don't take?"-Jack Kerouac.

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longweekend58

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #115 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:16pm

BigOl64 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 2:38pm:

and ALLOWING 'trigger-happy maniacs' to own a gun is a solution?

Remember what I said about trying a valid and rational argument.

This is the same emotive & irrational argument that howard used immediatly after port arthur to introduce the gun laws.

Grandstanding on dead bodies and using politcal opportunism to implement his own prejudice ideology.

It was quite a valid response since LDP policy is to allow guns for virtually any reason.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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BobH

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #116 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:42pm

skippy. wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 3:58pm:

Cant you just tell us bob?
http://www.aec.gov.au/election/downloads.htm#gvt

Can you see the little blue box at the top of the page when you make a post? if you want to post a link click on that and insert it.

There I've done it for you, now instead of me trawling through the aec website can you tell us who you are doing preference deals with?

Well I wasn't in charge of preference deals and we haven't had a meeting yet to fully discuss what deals were made on the weekend. All I've been told as we managed to make deals with all the minor and micro parties except the Socialists, Shooters (there goes the theory about LDP being gun-nuts) & Fishers, Family First and the Christian Democratic Party.

It's different for each states but it looks like for the most part we've preferenced small parties like Building Australia, Non-custodial Parents Party, Senators Online, Climate Sceptics, Careers Alliance and CEC ahead of some of the more mid-sized parties like the Democrats, DLP, Sex Party, Family First, Shooters & Fishers, One Nation and the Secular Party. Preferenced last are the Liberal/Nationals ahead of Labor ahead of the Greens ahead of the Socialists and Communists. So as I said, the micro parties were preferenced first, then the minor and mid-sized parties, and the major parties were preferenced last (except for the Socialists and Communists, for obvious reasons).

It looks like Senators Online, Climate Sceptics, Sex Party and Secular Party preferenced us well, at least in Queensland. Haven't really spent a lot of time looking at the other states. Liberal Nationals preferenced us higher than Labor did, who preferenced us higher than the Greens did. The Liberal Democrats and Greens are definitely butting heads by the looks.

Preferences give me a headache. That's why I let others deal with it all. I've been told we were successful over the weekend, although a little disappointed with the Shooters and Fishers. The party heads seem fairly optimistic about a chance of seating a Senator if things go well on election day. I'll know more after tomorrow night when I talk to everyone.

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« Last Edit: Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:48pm by BobH »

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longweekend58

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #117 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:46pm

BobH wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:42pm:

skippy. wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 3:58pm:

Cant you just tell us bob?
http://www.aec.gov.au/election/downloads.htm#gvt

Can you see the little blue box at the top of the page when you make a post? if you want to post a link click on that and insert it.

There I've done it for you, now instead of me trawling through the aec website can you tell us who you are doing preference deals with?

Well I wasn't in charge of preference deals and we haven't had a meeting yet to fully discuss what deals were made on the weekend. All I've been told as we managed to make deals with all the minor and micro parties except the Socialists, Shooters (there goes the theory about LDP being gun-nuts) & Fishers, Family First and the Christian Democratic Party.

It's different for each states but it looks like for the most part we've preferenced small parties like Building Australia, Non-custodial Parents Party, Senators Online, Climate Sceptics, Careers Alliance and CEC ahead of some of the more mid-sized parties like the Democrats, DLP, Sex Party, Family First, Shooters & Fishers, One Nation and the Secular Party. Preferenced last are the Liberal/Nationals ahead of Labor ahead of the Greens ahead of the Socialists and Communists. So as I said, the micro parties were preferenced first, then the minor and mid-sized parties, and the major parties were preferenced last (except for the Socialists and Communists, for obvious reasons).

It looks like Senators Online, Climate Sceptics, Sex Party and Secular Party preferenced us well, at least in Queensland. Haven't really spent a lot of time looking at the other states. Liberal Nationals preferenced us higher than Labor did, who preferenced us higher than the Greens did. The Liberal Democrats and Greens are definitely butting heads by the looks.

Im not sure the major parties are overly worried by your 12 votes.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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BobH

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #118 - Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:54pm

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:46pm:

Im not sure the major parties are overly worried by your 12 votes.

From what I've been told, Greens are very crappy about what we pulled over the weekend. But I don't know. I'm very interested to talk in detail about the preferences deals we made over the weekend at our next meeting.

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Equitist

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Re: Liberal Democratic Party
Reply #119 - Aug 3^rd, 2010 at 9:29pm

BobH wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:54pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Aug 2^nd, 2010 at 4:46pm:

Im not sure the major parties are overly worried by your 12 votes.

From what I've been told, Greens are very crappy about what we pulled over the weekend. But I don't know. I'm very interested to talk in detail about the preferences deals we made over the weekend at our next meeting.

Preference deals can bring bizarre outcomes...

Ironically, FF got over the line with Lab preferences - but the FF candidate, that I spoke to at the last Federal Election when we were handing out competing how-to-votes, had NFI that he'd been screwed on the preference deal. Nor did he appreciate who was soaking up his preferences...

I have first hand experience of how preferences can alter the political landscape in a local election. It's a long story, but: several loosely-related groups of locals with a common nemesis had put up independent candidates, who banded together on the preferences with an agenda of outsting a corrupt male LibLab candidate. Instead, we managed to outst a good long-term female independent and install a less savvy female in her place (over time, she became a typical pollie).

That was over a decade ago but I still feel guilty enough, about the role I played in that council election, to have bad dreams about it during elections - I had one such dream only last night...

Politics is a dirty business and it takes a long time to wash the stench off...

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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!

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