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What is Truth? (Read 9725 times)
NorthOfNorth
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #60 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:10am
 
freediver wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 10:07am:
So because courage is hard to define we can't define truth. The problem with truth is not in defining it, but in finding it. It's like saying that it is impossible to define what a unicorn is unless you see one.

(Plato never did have Socrates end those wild goose chases with his quarry in hand).

We can define a unicorn as a horse with a horn.

Find before define?

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The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away I'm looking for the truth" and so it goes away.

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Sappho
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #61 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:35am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:36pm:
locutius wrote on Jul 19th, 2010 at 12:01pm:
Helian, love topics such as this....but ultimately I have to settle, due to my limited intellectual might and inadequate human senses and the gaps and deceptions that happen between the two and say...truth is what you make it or need to make it.

Yeah, they can be a bit of fun... In the end, though I believe truth exists but we can never know whether we've arrived at it... And (as I alluded to in another thread), I believe the best we can attain is a sense of certainty such that the quality of our convictions is the expression of the degree to which we have mastered the art of being certain.


Carrying on the Wittgenstein theme, I would add that if we do not have the language to express truth, then it is beyond our knowing truth. It may exist. It may not exist. But whilst there is no language forms to explore this... and there are none... because truth is metaphysical... then we cannot know it.

Even if we feel, as you do Helian, that truth exists, then that does not make it so, it merely proves that your feeling lacks language and so cannot be known.

If the world is a part of some greater whole, such as the universe, and through meditation, I feel that world, my earth and the energy it brings forth, and describe that sensation in a way that others can know... then still, I have not touched upon truth for I have only address a part of that whole to which the earth belongs.

The question therefore and its answer is beyond our comprehension.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #62 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:42am
 
Bearing in mind, of course, that Wittgenstein came to realise that language (words) were not all there was to the apprehension of meaning...

Yes, I believe it can be perceived... But only as complete, uncontingent and wordless, or not perceived at all.

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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #63 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:51am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:42am:
Bearing in mind, of course, that Wittgenstein came to realise that language (words) were not all there was to the apprehension of meaning...


I did not mean language to be only words. I was speaking of Wittgenstein post Tractatus. None the less, if words are the means of knowledge... of truth, then again, it is impossible to gain truth from them due to their misuse in 'word games' and corruptions in meaning.

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Yes, I believe it can be perceived... But only as complete, uncontingent and wordless, or not perceived at all.


I believe that we can sense it vaguely, tantalizing our curiosity to know it, yet will be forever unable to grasp it.  
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #64 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:15pm
 
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:51am:
None the less, if words are the means of knowledge...

At least for the transmission of knowledge.

Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:51am:
Quote:
Yes, I believe it can be perceived... But only as complete, uncontingent and wordless, or not perceived at all.


I believe that we can sense it vaguely, tantalizing our curiosity to know it, yet will be forever unable to grasp it.  

Well, yes... There is always the indestructible ubiquity of doubt, with practice of the art of certainty as the only hope for its perceived transcendence.
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #65 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:27pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:15pm:
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:51am:
None the less, if words are the means of knowledge...

At least for the transmission of knowledge.


I think language (that is words, symbols, images etc) and knowledge are one and the same and that if they are not then they are certainly symbiotic: you cannot have one without the other.

Quote:
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 11:51am:
Quote:
Yes, I believe it can be perceived... But only as complete, uncontingent and wordless, or not perceived at all.


I believe that we can sense it vaguely, tantalizing our curiosity to know it, yet will be forever unable to grasp it.  

Well, yes... There is always the indestructible ubiquity of doubt, with practice of the art of certainty as the only hope for its perceived transcendence.


And therein lies the problem... truth is without doubt!
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #66 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:32pm
 
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:27pm:
I think language (that is words, symbols, images etc) and knowledge are one and the same and that if they are not then they are certainly symbiotic: you cannot have one without the other.

Buddhist monks would disagree!

Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:27pm:
And therein lies the problem... truth is without doubt!

So raise your glass to the quest for transcendence!
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Soren
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #67 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:36pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 7:38am:
And a question I imagined would interest theists particularly... Given that for them if god is real, then absolute truth (as a synonym for or an attribute of god) must necessarily be real (being a temporal manifestation of its presence).

But then, of course, what is absolute cannot be defined except as something less than what it is...



You alert us to to the pivotal word in your question - is. The question of being is the question that encompasses both god and truth. Both are abstractions, as is Being, yet the meaning of both concrete things and abstract notions flow from how they are grasped.

Bill Clinton put is succintly - it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is...



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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #68 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 1:08pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:32pm:
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:27pm:
I think language (that is words, symbols, images etc) and knowledge are one and the same and that if they are not then they are certainly symbiotic: you cannot have one without the other.

Buddhist monks would disagree!


Would you expand upon that please.
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #69 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 3:16pm
 
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 1:08pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:32pm:
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:27pm:
I think language (that is words, symbols, images etc) and knowledge are one and the same and that if they are not then they are certainly symbiotic: you cannot have one without the other.

Buddhist monks would disagree!


Would you expand upon that please.

In Eastern traditions, one 'apprehends' the absolute, the ultimate truth, when one overcomes/transcends self... Actually a state beyond both self and non-self... Beyond 'truth' and 'non-truth', beyond definition and non-definition, beyond existence and non-existence.

The state of enlightenment, where those enlightened 'know' oneness (actually neither knows nor not-knows) after which he can choose not not to return into Samsara (the wheel of life and suffering)... Nirvana.

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aikmann4
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #70 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 3:31pm
 
First of all, to rob a house, you need to do these steps:

First - Case the Joint

Spend a few days, preferably running or some poo (make sure to change clothes, hats, etc to avoid recognition) to memorize the families and neighbors routes and habits - If one house, no matter how juicy, has a nosy neighbor from hell (or a guard dog), leave it.

Second - Preparation

You need to prepare yourself - buy a new, cheap pair of shoes (10$ would be fine), wear clothes that are light, yet helps you from being recognized, THICK gloves (Doctor's gloves are very thin and can even HELP in the detection of fingerprints), get a haircut (can be a common source of identification if a murder accidentally takes place, but that wouldn't happen if you followed step 1), LEARN LOCKPICKING (You DON'T want to have to smash in a window, it's loud and can leave small traces of glass in your clothes, possibly identifying you) so you can pick the lock on the back door.

Third - Entry

Enter the building - It's not that complicated, bring your supplies (Standard-Issue: Mask, Gloves, Bag, Weapon*, Lockpicking kit) and enter the building via a way that ISN'T open to the street yet gives you a possible source of an emergency exit (In case of unwanted company (ironic, no?) or the owners coming home). DO NOT BREAK A WINDOW, IT IS LOUD AND LEAVES EVIDENCE.

Fourth - The Loot

Search through the rooms - pay special attention to the Master and Children bedrooms - they often contain computers, jewelry, wallets, and other valuables. ALWAYS check the closet - I** once found a stash of jewerly in a shoebox. Yes, a Shoebox. Acquire things based off a WEIGHT - VALUE ratio - don't pick up a 50 lb ancient computer unlikely to get you 20$ in the street, go for slim desktops***, and laptops***, ipods (NOT PHONES - NEVER TAKE A smacking PHONE, THEY CAN TRACE YOUR ASS) games, antiques, rare collectibles (I'm talking like EPIC rating here, like one of the first 5 volumes printed of Harry Potter or some poo)

Stick all of the loot you can into your bag, then get the hell out of there.

Fifth - Getting the hell out

The most crucial part of a robbery is to snatch-and-grab, get in, get the goods, and get the bugger out. So many idiots get caught because they think there is something worth more than 5$ that they didn't grab.

Use your secondary exit, and run towards your designated pickup spot (where you left your car some distance away, or where your partner-in-crime is waiting), MAKING SURE YOU ARE NOT SEEN.

Sixth - Pawning the poo / Getting rid of evidence

Don't ever ever ever try to pawn something anywhere near where it was stolen. Rule of thumb : When pawning computers (If you don't want to use) MAKE SURE YOU COMPLETELY WIPE THEM - here's how - make the computer go to factory defaults, then download incredibly large amount of useless files (Encyclopedia of Britannica is a good one - it's huge!) then do it again. Why? Because police have techies than can recover data from computers - pinning the theft on you. Sell everything you possibly can on the street (without losing more than 50% value, don't sell a 3K computer for 500$), then pawn the poo (after wiping it, if a technical device - otherwise, melt it down and sell it to some gold company)

Get rid of the evidence. Burn the $10 shoes and your gloves - they can be a sort of fingerprint in themselves- and stay away from the area for a few months at LEAST.

Now you might not get caught when robbing some poor bastards house.

But don't rob:

-Elderly
-Widows
-Ninjas
-Secret Agents
-Your Drug Dealer
-Your Mom
-Optimus Prime

Or they'll come for you.

*Having a weapon in the house could cause them to retaliate violently instinctively, and you could be shot and killed. Robbery can be dangerous.

** I Admit no guilt

*** Unless the computer is reasonable light, compact, or extremely valuable, don't take it.

DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY ACTIONS YOU DO OR ANY ACTIONS DONE TO YOU BECAUSE YOU READ THIS COMMENT
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Sappho
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #71 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:25pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 3:16pm:
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 1:08pm:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:32pm:
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 12:27pm:
I think language (that is words, symbols, images etc) and knowledge are one and the same and that if they are not then they are certainly symbiotic: you cannot have one without the other.

Buddhist monks would disagree!


Would you expand upon that please.

In Eastern traditions, one 'apprehends' the absolute, the ultimate truth, when one overcomes/transcends self... Actually a state beyond both self and non-self... Beyond 'truth' and 'non-truth', beyond definition and non-definition, beyond existence and non-existence.


Surely, if it is beyond 'truth' and 'non-truth', then it is beyond also the scope of debate about the nature of truth, to which my comments are directed?

You see, to understand the nature of truth, one must have the language/knowledge of understanding. I put it to you that truth is more complex than the intellectual ability of man. It is beyond our knowing.

Quote:
The state of enlightenment, where those enlightened 'know' oneness (actually neither knows nor not-knows) after which he can choose not not to return into Samsara (the wheel of life and suffering)... Nirvana.


Nirvana is nothingness?
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #72 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 7:26pm
 
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:25pm:
Surely, if it is beyond 'truth' and 'non-truth', then it is beyond also the scope of debate about the nature of truth, to which my comments are directed?

To which a(Zen) Buddhist monk might reply :

Quote:
A philosopher asked Buddha: "Without words, without silence, will you tell me the truth?" The Buddha sat quietly. The philosopher then bowed and thanked the Buddha, saying, "With your loving kindness I have cleared away my delusions and entered the true path." After the philosopher had gone, Ananda asked Buddha what the philosopher had attained. The Buddha commented, "A good horse runs even at the shadow of the whip."

A Koan's point is to direct the searching mind away from the futile attempt of apprehending the truth via the intellect and towards its knowing by transcendence of self.

Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:25pm:
I put it to you that truth is more complex than the intellectual ability of man. It is beyond our knowing.

As above.

Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:25pm:
Quote:
The state of enlightenment, where those enlightened 'know' oneness (actually neither knows nor not-knows) after which he can choose not not to return into Samsara (the wheel of life and suffering)... Nirvana.


Nirvana is nothingness?

It is the state of neither existence nor non-existence.

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Sappho
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #73 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 8:08pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 7:26pm:
A Koan's point is to direct the searching mind away from the futile attempt of apprehending the truth via the intellect and towards its knowing by transcendence of self.


I couldn't decide if I should be frustrated or not.... so I just smiled to myself instead.

Isn't it true that most Buddhist don't actually transcend the self and so never know this un-truth you speak of?  

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Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:25pm:
Nirvana is nothingness?

It is the state of neither existence nor non-existence.


Now my smile is a little larger than before.  Wink

Surely, if a state is neither existence or non-existence then it is nothingness because it lacks somethingness?
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Re: What is Truth?
Reply #74 - Jul 25th, 2010 at 8:56pm
 
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 8:08pm:
I couldn't decide if I should be frustrated or not.... so I just smiled to myself instead.

Isn't it true that most Buddhist don't actually transcend the self and so never know this un-truth you speak of?

Yes,well knowing truth is not easy... even in the East!

The 'non-truth' I speak of is the Eastern tradition of placing ultimate truth above absolutes. with Eastern philosophy truth is apprehended/knowable only by transcendence.. i.e. it cannot be apprehended by the intellect... and yet nevertheless those traditions maintain that truth is knowable. 

Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 8:08pm:
Quote:
Sappho wrote on Jul 25th, 2010 at 6:25pm:
Nirvana is nothingness?

It is the state of neither existence nor non-existence.


Now my smile is a little larger than before.  Wink

Surely, if a state is neither existence or non-existence then it is nothingness because it lacks somethingness?

And therein lies the great gulf between eastern and western philosophical traditions. In the east there exists a state that is neither existence or non-existence... neither something nor nothing... neither good nor evil... neither true nor untrue... It is beyond absolutes. Historically, few in the west have embraced this concept (although the likes of German priest Meister Eckhart did in the 14th century and he was excommunicated for heresy).

Quote:
God is nameless, for no man can either say or understand aught about Him. If I say, God is good, it is not true; nay more; I am good, God is not good. I may even say, I am better than God; for whatever is good, may become better, and whatever may become better, may become best. Now God is not good, for He cannot become better. And if He cannot become better, He cannot become best, for these three things, good, better, and best, are far from God, since He is above all. If I also say, God is wise, it is not true; I am wiser than He. If I also say, God is a Being, it is not true;

Meister Eckhart.
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